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Murder in the school
marymary100 - 15-2-2018 at 21:09

America proves once again that it prefers having guns to not having dead schoolchildren.



Quote:

Nikolas Cruz, 19, has appeared in court charged with murder. With 17 people killed, this is the deadliest US school shooting since 2012.
Mr Cruz, who had links with a white supremacist group, reportedly commented on YouTube last year that he would be a "professional school shooter."
A user alerted authorities to the post.
Teachers were also warned about Mr Cruz, who was not allowed on campus with a backpack, US media report.
The FBI said it had investigated the YouTube comment but had been unable to fully identify the person who posted it.


LSemmens - 16-2-2018 at 00:29

Every child from kindy up should be required to carry an AK47 as part of their school uniform. For personal protection, of course. ;)


scholar - 16-2-2018 at 02:42

Quote:
Originally posted by marymary100
America proves once again that it prefers having guns to not having dead schoolchildren.

The choice is not between having guns or not having dead schoolchildren; someone bent on killing groups of people can do so by explosive bombs, by poison gas, or by setting fires.


marymary100 - 16-2-2018 at 06:54

America is the only country where children in schools are shot. America is also the only country with the frequency of murdering students is this high. Think that through. Start joining up the dots.


Nimuae - 16-2-2018 at 07:37

It said on the news that this was 18th attack in or near a school this year - and we are only half way through February!

What a country !!


John_Little - 16-2-2018 at 08:56

Nim beat me to it. 18 and its only half way through February. And that's not to mention all the other shootings there have been. Still, if it wasn't for guns there might have been a lot more! Or less. More or less.


Katzy - 16-2-2018 at 10:18

This year, there has been, on average, a school shooting every sixty hours.

Why would N. Korea want to invade the US? They're killing themselves quite well enough.

I've seen it postulated that Yanks want to carry guns, as a protection from their own government. With Trump in, maybe that's understandable?


John_Little - 16-2-2018 at 10:28

Someone on the radio addressed that point. They said that the "Government" has tanks and missiles (including nuclear) cruise missiles, killer drones, an air force with fighter bombers......How does anyone expect to fight back against that with a few militia men with guns - even if some are automatic weapons?


Katzy - 16-2-2018 at 11:45

I have no idea, mate. Some Yanks, it seems, would rather lose their children than their guns.


Nimuae - 16-2-2018 at 12:57

Quote:
Originally posted by Katzy
This year, there has been, on average, a school shooting every sixty hours.

Why would N. Korea want to invade the US? They're killing themselves quite well enough.

I've seen it postulated that Yanks want to carry guns, as a protection from their own government. With Trump in, maybe that's understandable?


Good point !


Nimuae - 16-2-2018 at 12:58

Quote:
Originally posted by Katzy
I have no idea, mate. Some Yanks, it seems, would rather lose their children than their guns.


Sad but true!


Katzy - 16-2-2018 at 13:59

This says things way better'n I could...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/florida-school-shooting-gun-control-arm-children-students-trump-america-national-rifle-assoc iation-a8212631.html


JackInCT - 16-2-2018 at 18:22

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
How does anyone expect to fight back against that with a few militia men with guns - even if some are automatic weapons?


The issue is/was NEVER about guns, but a fear of the "state" having unbridled authority to dictate/control in as autocratic a manner as possible what people do with their lives. Part of such a view is the view of state employees who are seen as unaccountable for their decisions, and not to mention incompetent as well.

There are very limited ways the average person can fight back/defy its govt. Gun control/ownership is one of them.

The principals of govt laid out in the Constitution way back when
have gone unfulfilled due to the kind of folks who get elected, and their never ending quest for power/domination. There is a kind of love/hate relationship between the govt and its peoples. In this day in age the people have gladly turned over to the govt the enormous tasks of fixing anything, and everything, that's wrong with society [and there's nothing even begin to approach a consensus as to what that is], and they simply sitback and watch--they really don't want to be involved in finding AND PARTICIPATING [working] in solutions.

The classic issue, and of one many, is crime and punishment. It is, realistically, a whole lot easier to put a man on the moon, than to get folks to agree on what should be done with felons, especially violent felons. Gun ownership is, for many otherwise 'normal' people the only way to protect themselves from criminals who they believe could care less if their victims live or die. It is no accident that TV programs involving crime are among the top rated viewer numbers wise, programs.


John_Little - 16-2-2018 at 21:56

Jack, you can put a lot of words together in a very poetic way, but when push comes to shove.....guns mean death. The Beach Boys had a good.line:

The pen is mightier than the sword
But no match for the gun
There's a riot going on


Redwolf5150 - 17-2-2018 at 15:33

Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
Quote:
Originally posted by marymary100
America proves once again that it prefers having guns to not having dead schoolchildren.

The choice is not between having guns or not having dead schoolchildren; someone bent on killing groups of people can do so by explosive bombs, by poison gas, or by setting fires.


Yeah, that happens a lot in countries where the ownership of assault-style weapons is prohibited.


Katzy - 17-2-2018 at 22:05

Gun control, in the US, is difficult. But, it'd be easy, comparatively, to stop production of bullets.

I wonder if that'd work... Not 100%, obviously.


scholar - 17-2-2018 at 22:52

Law enforcement deputies had been called to the killer's home 39 times.
https://nypost.com/2018/02/16/deputies-called-to-suspected-shooters-home-39-times-over-seven-years/

A video is at the bottom of the page in which someone recounts that he had gotten a reply to a posted video in which Nikolas Cruz said he was going to be a professional school shooter, and he reported this to the FBI in September of 2017.

The FBI was warned on January 5, 2018.

Quote:
“A person close to” Cruz called the agency’s tipline on Jan. 5 and reported the 19-year-old had a “desire to kill people, erratic behavior, and disturbing social media posts” and there was “potential of him conducting a school shooting,” the FBI said in a statement.

But the agency said it failed to pass on any of that information to its Miami field office


I heard on television news that he had also harmed animals without remorse--a classic sign of lack of normal empathy, and one indicator of sociopaths.

When law enforcement is warned of an individual like this, six weeks in advance of the murderous event, and when the killer identifies himself BY NAME in the previous year as a professional school shooter, it would make sense for law enforcement officials to take preventative/protective actions.

But, when a person can use bombs, poison gas, fires, guns, or vehicles to kill people--you have to do something about the person and his situation.

President Trump addressed young people and said that they need to connect with others, to form bonds and to know that they are not alone. He suggested speaking with a teacher or faith leader (among others--those are two I remember from his address). He also spoke of the need for us to do better in addressing mental health issues. Both are important.


marymary100 - 17-2-2018 at 23:38

Tell you what you should do. Take away everyone's guns and when they complain send them thoughts and prayers.


JackInCT - 18-2-2018 at 00:59

Quote:
Originally posted by marymary100
... Take away everyone's guns ...


And while they're at it, take away everyone's illegal drugs.


Redwolf5150 - 18-2-2018 at 01:16

Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
He also spoke of the need for us to do better in addressing mental health issues.


The same man who has systematically gutted funding for mental health care in this country?
The same man who rescinded an Obama era Executive Order that made it harder for people with mental health issues to get firearms?

DUDE!
Your beloved Cheetolini is naked, you do realize that, right?


Redwolf5150 - 18-2-2018 at 01:30

This


JackInCT - 18-2-2018 at 03:16

Everyday of the week scores of folks get maimed/are killed/arrested for DUI. Admittedly that's a very tiny percentage of folks who consume alcoholic beverages of one kind or another. Everyday of the weeks folks get maimed/are killed/arrested for being shot, or shooting someone. Admittedly that's a very tiny percentage of folks who have guns.

I know-let's ban (and confiscate) both.


Redwolf5150 - 18-2-2018 at 05:04

Driving drunk is illegal in all 50 states.
Killing someone while driving drunk is against the law in all 50 states.

Apples and oranges


Redwolf5150 - 18-2-2018 at 05:14

Oh, and THIS TOO!


LSemmens - 18-2-2018 at 13:19

Quote:
Originally posted by Katzy
This says things way better'n I could...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/florida-school-shooting-gun-control-arm-children-students-trump-america-national-rifle-assoc iation-a8212631.html
I think I made this point in post 2. :D


Katzy - 18-2-2018 at 14:34

Indeed. :D


marymary100 - 18-2-2018 at 19:09

On March 13th 1996 in Dunblane there was a mass shooting in a P1 class. In Scotland we campaigned to ban guns, except in particular circumstances. We haven't had a school shooting since.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/02/we-banned-guns-killed-school-children-dunblane-here-s-how



Quote:

This brings me back to the United States. To a country whose response to the 22 Sandy Hook deaths is for people to ask for school teachers to be armed, rather than calling for people to disarm and to move for proper regulation of firearms and thorough background checks. There are 101 guns for every 100 Americans. That’s the legal ones.

How many more are actually in circulation? A country where millions of dollars are spent protecting its borders from “terrorists” from outside the US, who killed 68 Americans in 2016; when there are 96 deaths every day, of which seven are children and teens, or 13,000 a year, killed because of the nation's obsession with the second amendment and the “right to bear arms”. An amendment that was supposed to allow Americans protection against their government, and not be used so that people could terrorise each other. Since Sandy Hook in December 2012, a gun has been fired on school grounds nearly once a week, that’s more than 290 times. In the six weeks of 2018, there have already been 18 school shootings.
Then you listen to politicians, the National Rifle Association, and others who say that the latest families from Florida have their “thoughts and prayers”. I tell you what, I wouldn’t want thoughts and prayers, I would want policies and regulation and a grown-up discussion about changing the American gun culture. “Thoughts and prayers” won’t bring any of those children back, but regulation could stop more families facing the torture of life without their child, wracked with guilt about letting them go to school that morning.
The American gun lobby is a mighty force, but cultural change can happen. Where there is a will, there is a way. Who would have thought that New York, Ireland, and Scotland would be the first three places in the world to ban smoking cigarettes in public places? Who could now imagine putting innocent lives at risk by driving home after a night of drinking, which was culturally acceptable just a few decades ago?
There is no doubt that Scottish and British culture is different to American culture, but not that different. The British reaction to Dunblane was to embrace the shift that was necessary to reduce legal gun ownership on our shores. Surely it’s time for America to do the same?


LSemmens - 19-2-2018 at 07:36

I can't remember when we had a school shooting here in OZ. Try as I might, I cannot even think of a recent "mass shooting" Even the Lindt Cafe siege is now a distant memory. Maybe we need to get a few more guns on the streets, to "protect" ourselves and become as "safe" as America. Downtown Beirut is likely to be much safer, methinks.


JackInCT - 19-2-2018 at 14:01

I have an idea for all of you who are in favor of a total ban on any/all private citizen ownership of any type of a gun. How about anytime that you are out and about in public, wearing a big, boldly lettered button that states, "I Am In Favor Of A Complete Ban On Gun Ownership; I Am NOT Carrying A Gun".


John_Little - 19-2-2018 at 14:05

Good idea. You could make a fortune out of that!


scholar - 19-2-2018 at 16:34

Quote:
Originally posted by Redwolf5150
Driving drunk is illegal in all 50 states.
Killing someone while driving drunk is against the law in all 50 states.

Apples and oranges

Murdering people with a gun is also illegal in all 50 states.

It is obvious that having a law against something does not stop someone from breaking that law.

And Jack's point is exactly on target, that the possible misuse of X [alcohol, guns, or something else] does not mean that the solution is for X[alcohol, guns, or something else] to be banned.

On the other hand--I think that some things are banned, outright (private ownership of nuclear weapons, I would imagine), and I agree with such a ban.

A total ban on guns in the U.S. would not work, because there are already so many guns here, and criminals would keep theirs in defiance of the law, leaving the population without defense against the law-breakers. Since a person can make his own gun from parts (I saw a news report on this. They are called "ghost guns."), laws that restrict purchase or manufacture cannot keep guns out of the hands of determined people--not to mention smuggled guns, stolen guns, etc.


scholar - 19-2-2018 at 17:02

Quote:
Originally posted by Redwolf5150
The same man who rescinded an Obama era Executive Order that made it harder for people with mental health issues to get firearms?

This was wrongly reported by three major networks--fake news.

Obama ordered that people who get Social Security payments which go to another person to oversee that part of their finances, not be allowed to purchase guns. This was not Constitutional, and the ACLU--not a conservative group!--opposed the order.

One has to carefully "thread the needle" to understand and report this accurately, so as not to misrepresent the action.

A deranged person who would want to buy a gun to kill himself or someone else MIGHT have a designated payee to receive Social Security Disability Payments and help with their finances. This is what Obama's people hoped to prevent with the order that Obama signed.

But most people who have a designated Social Security payee are NOT deranged, murder-oriented people. They might have a designated payee for as simple a reason as not remembering things as well as they used to, or not being good at paying their bills on time. Such people could have as much of a need as anyone else for a gun to protect themselves or their loved ones from robbery, rape, or other violence.

The order was unlawful and wrong because it prevented gun purchases for the whole group, the innocent and the at-risk-to-be-murderers alike.


JackInCT - 19-2-2018 at 19:20

Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
...Obama ordered that people who get Social Security payments which go to another person to oversee that part of their finances, not be allowed to purchase guns...


What you posted is accurate as far as it goes, but it ignores the reality of just how often legislation/regulations/etc. are very poorly vetted by individuals who are basically civil servants of one kind or another, and that in turn wind up on their bosses desks.

That individual in Hawaii who sent out the missile alert is a classic example of civil service servants incompetence. In that case it got a great deal of public media coverage. But most of the time it's below the radar.

Two examples in my long career in human services: (1) a young adult became a "client" of my state's dept of mental retardation (name now changed); he drove a car; no one in the agency wanted to notify the dept of motor vehicles if that was "OK", (2) another young adult was a client and he was hired on as a security guard by a private agency that the dept contracted out for who wound up stationed at the front gate at one of the dept's regional facilities (he was unarmed).

You can't make this stuff up. I certainly can assure you that if either one "messed up", the dept had a rather large bag of canned institutional type responses as to why they were not to blame.

Most of the posters on this board strike me as having a total lack of recognition/awareness of what is possible by any govt bureaucracy, the culture/work ethic in bureaucracies, and the political system that runs these bureaucracies where accountability does not exist in any way, shape, or form, I. e., govt agencies by and large provide services, and NOT some tangible product.


marymary100 - 19-2-2018 at 19:35

Quote:
Originally posted by JackInCT

Most of the posters on this board strike me as having a total lack of recognition/awareness of what is possible by any govt bureaucracy, the culture/work ethic in bureaucracies, and the political system that runs these bureaucracies where accountability does not exist in any way, shape, or form, I. e., govt agencies by and large provide services, and NOT some tangible product.


Unless I am mistaken you can only speak with confidence about systems and protocols in your own country, or even in a much smaller way in your own State.

I have taught in three different continents so would speak about a variety of contexts but even then would not extrapolate that to all educational settings in all three continents.


scholar - 19-2-2018 at 20:33

Quote:
Originally posted by marymary100
Quote:
Originally posted by JackInCT

Most of the posters on this board strike me as having a total lack of recognition/awareness of what is possible by any govt bureaucracy, the culture/work ethic in bureaucracies, and the political system that runs these bureaucracies where accountability does not exist in any way, shape, or form, I. e., govt agencies by and large provide services, and NOT some tangible product.


Unless I am mistaken you can only speak with confidence about systems and protocols in your own country, or even in a much smaller way in your own State.

I have taught in three different continents so would speak about a variety of contexts but even then would not extrapolate that to all educational settings in all three continents.

MM, since the OP referenced America and came just after some people were killed in Florida, I think we are talking about the the U.S., are we not?


marymary100 - 19-2-2018 at 20:45

Jack said

Quote:
Most of the posters on this board strike me as having a total lack of recognition/awareness of what is possible by any govt bureaucracy, the culture/work ethic in bureaucracies, and the political system that runs these bureaucracies where accountability does not exist in any way, shape, or form, I. e., govt agencies by and large provide services, and NOT some tangible product.
He is the one calling out the rest of the posters here and was talking about any government bureaucracy.


As Donald Rumsfeld said, "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."


scholar - 19-2-2018 at 21:10

Quote:
Originally posted by marymary100
Jack said
Quote:
Most of the posters on this board strike me as having a total lack of recognition/awareness of what is possible by any govt bureaucracy, the culture/work ethic in bureaucracies, and the political system that runs these bureaucracies where accountability does not exist in any way, shape, or form, I. e., govt agencies by and large provide services, and NOT some tangible product.
He is the one calling out the rest of the posters here and was talking about any government bureaucracy.


As Donald Rumsfeld said, "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."


"Most of the posters" settles it. I stand corrected. doffs_cap


LSemmens - 20-2-2018 at 12:12

I worked in a government department for about 10 years of my life. So, "plausible deniability" becomes a way of life.

Yes, America has left it way too late to shut the gate on gun ownership. As far as your little "Button" is concerned, I'd happily wear one in OZ. We do have guns in private hands, they are generally used for hunting. Of course criminals are more likely to be armed, however, they are less likely to be so, because weapons are far harder to obtain and those who do obtain a weapon tend to look after them a little better because they are so much harder to come by. Therefore it is also much harder for criminals to obtain a weapon by ANY means.

It could go a long way to mitigating its problems by removing Automatic weapons of any kind from the hands of Joe Public. Remember it only takes ONE bullet to kill, so there will be no real problem if you are only looking for self defence.


John_Little - 20-2-2018 at 12:44

It may take only one bullet to kill, but it takes at least 17 to kill 17 people. So even if guns are prolific, they could control the availability of ammunition.


JackInCT - 20-2-2018 at 14:37

One of the underlying major issues to all of this is recidivism.

To wit:
"Nationally, the rate of recidivism — the return to that criminal lifestyle — is 43.3 percent within three years.

Figures fluctuate considerably, but a report on Connecticut recidivism issued by the Pew Charitable Trusts in 2012 found that of the 14,400 men who were released from prison in 2005, nearly 80 percent had been arrested again by 2010."

While this Pew Report, and the newspaper rag may own the problem re the way it sensationalizes the news by leaving out pertinent facts, is what type of arrests, i. e., misdemeanor or felony, are the ex-cons being arrested for. But in any event, the "failure" rate of the criminal justice system to "reform" criminals while they are in custody is huge, i. e. #2, putting convicted criminals in jail does not have much of a deterrent factor, etc., for future criminal activity. In turn citizens have to deal with the reality that the caliber of elected politicians is such that they are unwilling to admit that the criminal justice system is more than just broken, it is a total failure. And they won't make such an admission IMO cause they don't see any politically palatable alternative cause the only alternative that exists is for any convicted criminal who uses a gun in the commission of a crime is sent away to a 'devil's island' forever for no better reason than they are a PROBABLY a lost cause.

And since a great many of these individuals are both members of gangs, and men of color, the "debate" such as it is, always deteriorates to being one of racist accusations. And that in turn invariably leads to the confronting the reality that America is racially divided--NOT completely across the board, but pretty much so. And that in turn leads to another dismal reality that central cities are not only gangs HQs, but also their de facto "holding pens"/dumping ground, i. e., it is no accident that ex-cons and gang members live in central cities, AND in turn that's where most of the murders occur.

Last Wednesday at 9:20 PM I heard numerous shots fired not close to my house, but no so distant either. Next day I read 3 people are shot a couple of blocks away. There have been at least a half-dozen murders within blocks of my house, & untold numbers of shots fired incidents. This area may not be a war zone like Iraq/Afghanistan but it is socially the equivalent re the destruction of the social fabric of a community re the reality of miscreants. And since no politician is willing to say 'enough is enough already', people will do what they feel they have a right to do, and that's survive by any/all means re any possible confrontation with what is probably a deranged human. Citizens feel that they have the right to turn to guns as the only alternative to self-perseveration of the armed camp variety, no matters what happens in schools. By the way, a chemical restraint approach to miscreants is not about to fly anytime soon; no one believes that any state agency employee is going to do something like that any better than they do anything else.
Take a peek sometime as to what really goes on at these "facilities" for released (from custody) sex offenders.


John_Little - 21-2-2018 at 11:09

Sounds quite dystopian.


JackInCT - 21-2-2018 at 16:24

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
Sounds quite dystopian.


The embedded image occurred 02/19/18 at about 2:30 PM in Bridgeport, CT. Bridgeport has a population of about 150,000 and is the largest city in CT.

The man with the gun is shooting at a car that is travelling from left to right in the video.

My screen capture was from a video the police dept released (it's on uTube; run time about 2:30), without citing where the cameras were, but it appears that they are mounted at the grocery store located at the scene. A cable technician was wounded at that time according to the local rag's online edition WITHOUT word one as to how that occurred, etc., to include whether he/she was in the car that the shooter was aiming at [typicallycable tech's on the job vehicle is a panel truck with the cable company logo on it].

So far, there have been no arrests.

There are no stats as to how often the bad guys flee the scene via backyards in the neighborhood, or attempt to hide in someone's yard, or if fleeing in a vehicle, do so at high speeds.

I sure would like to hear someone on this board offer up any sort of a suggestion as to what the law abiding residents in this town should be doing to protect themselves from the likes of the adult male in the image. A reply of keeping that man in the video from ever having access to a gun is a non-starter.


John_Little - 21-2-2018 at 16:46

Haven't you seen gunfight at the ok coral? Or high noon? You challenge them to a gun fight and shoot it out! Either that, or you do what we do here and have a lot of close cct tv so you can follow them and arrest them.


JackInCT - 21-2-2018 at 18:02

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
...arrest them.


Arresting them appears to be at best a short term solution given the recidivism rate. And to make a bad situation even worse, the sentence (length of time in jail) imposed by the judge upon their conviction, is almost always cut short.

The long used term of "revolving door justice" is not some cheap shot; it is the reality of what has been going on for years and years.

And finally I would offer up the thesis as to why given the obvious age of the shooter, they should ever again see the light of day.

Just in case anyone forgets about the possible scenarios depicted in the pix, it is quite possible that the shooter is known and the "friends"/relatives of the intended victim will not wait for the criminal justice system to kick in, and will extract their version of 'street justice' in possibly a similar manner-tough luck if you're a bystander!


John_Little - 21-2-2018 at 20:36

As,I said gunfight at the OK Corral.


John_Little - 22-2-2018 at 10:02

I see Trump is favouring the OK Corral option and is planning to arm the teachers. They better get practising on shooting tin cans and bottles off a fence. Oh, and work on their draw. I think you have to tie the bottom of your holster to your leg.


LSemmens - 22-2-2018 at 13:37

Your horse has long bolted, Jack, so much so the grass has grown up and hidden the gate, so shutting it is not an easy option.

I see Donald Duck has, at least, attempted to mitigate some damage by attempting to ban Bump Stock weapons. I'd go so far as to say that this is a good thing in the short term, long term, he could then try and place a ban on automatic and semi automatic weapons in the hands of civilian and off duty persons. Even weapons over, say, .22 cal should be limited for general ownership. i.e. You must demonstrate a proficiency in weaponry and responsible ownership, and a valid need for said high powered weapon. Hunting is valid with the appropriate licenses. Of course it is going to take a Loooong time to gain control of the private arsenals that many Americans have managed to accumulate. So long, in fact, that no one Parliament would be able to achieve it. The mindest of the nation must needs change. By now, you would hope that you'd grown beyond the "wild west" mentality and "Civil war" mindset and realise that the Government is NOT out to get you! (Despite every appearance to the contrary!)


JackInCT - 22-2-2018 at 15:07

It never ceases to amaze me that when the subject of gun violence comes up on this board, posters solution is to ban guns without Word 1 as to (1) how to enforce such a ban (the mechanisms for), & (2) the sanctions/penalties/etc. that should be put into place for anyone who violates the ban.

Folks, deliberately ignoring the need for such a plan does a disservice to the victims of gun violence by making it appear that it is a lack of will power/hubris that has caused their deaths and up to include that gun ownership is de facto evidence that it satisfies seem deep seated perverse psychological need.

It certainly is a means to an end allright, and that end is to increase the possibility of self-preservation if you are waylaid by someone who may have a weapon, & who doesn't care if they feel like killing you.

There is no glory in using a gun in taking a life because that person in the act of committing a crime might kill you, and it's the only alternative to becoming a dead victim.

The debate shouldn't be about auto or semi-auto weapons, or caliber; it should be about how some individuals become so warped that killing someone doesn't deserve, in their minds, Thought 1. But then, that's an imponderable, isn't it; homo sapiens seems to be enthralled with the notion that they are so smart intellectually that they can solve any problem. I have to wonder what's taking so long to figure out how folks become so messed up that murder seems like a good idea, as well as a plan to keep such folks from ever reaching such a state.

If that's the case, I suppose we should really be considering/focusing on medicating the water supply/whatever so that 100% of us behave ourselves all the time. I do believe that we've all seen that movie!


John_Little - 22-2-2018 at 16:18

Are you a member or supporter of the NRA, Jack?


marymary100 - 22-2-2018 at 21:58

John Oliver - rude warning


scholar - 22-2-2018 at 23:29

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
I see Trump is favouring the OK Corral option and is planning to arm the teachers. They better get practising on shooting tin cans and bottles off a fence. Oh, and work on their draw. I think you have to tie the bottom of your holster to your leg.

waggyfinger
I actually viewed when Trump listened to people with concerns related to school violence, which included people who have been present at shootings, relatives of people who were shot, and educators in schools where deadly violence is an issue. I heard their suggestions and Trump's responses, and I've followed the news with respect to the directions he has been giving people in his administration.

He wants people who are heading toward such a wrong path to get help and/or intervention, and he noted that there are fewer live-in mental facilities than there used to be in the U.S. He wants to outlaw devices which effectively change legal weapons into illegal automatic weapons in their effect (this would include bump-stock and modification kits). He would like to raise the age for some kinds of weapon purchases, perhaps to 21. He heard suggestions to make schools "hardened targets," with better physical security e.g. metal detectors and/or X-rays of bags and control of access points, and possibly to have the ability of armed response on site--but he also heard and acknowledged that some people might not want such an approach. He wants stronger, better background checks for people who are going to purchase a firearm. He wants law enforcement to respond to stop threats when they are warned.

JL, when some of the people in the listening group suggested having armed school staff, and Trump talked about how such a thing might work, that is a far cry from Trump arming teachers. It is worth noting that public and private schools in the U.S. are not run by the Federal government, and local gun laws with respect to concealed carry are by state laws, not federal.


scholar - 22-2-2018 at 23:30

Among people who favor the possibility of someone armed at schools, the air marshal model is favored. Would-be airplane hijackers are deterred when they don't know if an air marshal is aboard, and who he might be. U.S. schools generally advertise themselves as a no-firearms zone, which says, "If you want to shoot people and have no one firing back, come here." People who are retired police or military servicemen who have been using sidearms could be in the schools, hiding in plain site. Unfortunately, where there is a visible armed guard (e.g. in companies with private security), a shooter will try to get him first so as to have no one firing back.


marymary100 - 23-2-2018 at 06:52

Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
Among people who favor the possibility of someone armed at schools, the air marshal model is favored. Would-be airplane hijackers are deterred when they don't know if an air marshal is aboard, and who he might be. U.S. schools generally advertise themselves as a no-firearms zone, which says, "If you want to shoot people and have no one firing back, come here." People who are retired police or military servicemen who have been using sidearms could be in the schools, hiding in plain site. Unfortunately, where there is a visible armed guard (e.g. in companies with private security), a shooter will try to get him first so as to have no one firing back.



I call BS as John Oliver said in my earlier post. You're wrong scholar. Unfortunately advocating guns seems to be your only response because you believe the right wing narrative beloved by those who take kickbacks from the gun lobby before drawing up laws. One would think your posts were sponsored by the NRA.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634


Quote:

An armed officer assigned to the Florida school where a gunman killed 17 people last week stood outside the building during the shooting and did not intervene, the local sheriff says.
Deputy Scot Peterson has resigned after being suspended, Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said.
"I am devastated. Sick to my stomach. He never went in," Sheriff Israel said.
Earlier this week President Trump said arming school teachers could prevent school shootings.
The proposal has long been championed by the powerful National Rifle Association (NRA) gun lobby.


LSemmens - 23-2-2018 at 08:58

Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me that when the subject of gun violence comes up on this board, posters solution is to ban guns without Word 1 as to (1) how to enforce such a ban (the mechanisms for), & (2) the sanctions/penalties/etc. that should be put into place for anyone who violates the ban.

Re- read my comments, I am NOT proposing that all guns are banned, what I AM proposing is a moratorium on fire arm ownership whereby some weapons are no longer available and others are harder to obtain. It is up to legislators to determine the appropriate penalties for non compliance.

It does no disservice to the victims to attempt to mitigate effects of the ownership of WMDs. (i.e. Automatic and semi-automatic weapons etc.). If one person is saved because a shooter has to re-load between shots, then the effects of the ban can be identified.

Even here where people have attempted armed robbery, the number of casualties is almost nil as there is no need to "protect" yourself in case your "victim" is armed.

If all people were sane and responsible then we could all safely assume that the nuclear arsenal next door was only for power generation. Sadly, that is NOT the case and we must legislate and protect against the lowest common denominator.

I note that an armed guard at the school in question was good protection for those students who were killed and injured....NOT!!! He was no help at all!!!


John_Little - 23-2-2018 at 09:15

To be fair to that guard, he had no idea what he was up against. Waiting outside for a bit to assess the situation seems a reasonable idea to me. Its what normally happens in terrorist situations. They don't normally just burst in all guns blazing. And if it was more than one gunman, he would have thought about back up. He'd be no good to anyone if he run in and got shot straight away.

But what about having some sort of entrance and exit barriers operated by pass cards? And maybe a security bloke in a glass box who you can talk to if you forget your pass? No need for guns, just controlled access.


JackInCT - 23-2-2018 at 14:06

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
To be fair to that guard, he had no idea what he was up against. Waiting outside for a bit to assess the situation seems a reasonable idea to me....


This post is an attempt to introduce a bit of background re this particular officer's actions/inactions.

In some quarters any/all police depts in the USA are considered to be paramilitary organizations (and in some countries local police are a part of that countries armed forces at the hierarchal organizational level + other units such as customs, etc.,). But does it matter whether police are/are not a paramilitary organizations?

In the USA in my part of the country there is a contractual labor-management ratified (voted on by the rank & file) document between a police officer and their local municipality, typically via a labor union. Just what that contract entails re job description is another matter re "interpretation", especially re management-subordinate lines re on the job authority re "marching" orders.

And then there is this whole area of "custom" ["commonly" accepted & presumed practices]-especially re standards of behavior/performance thathave never been formally codified [of the chapter, book, & verse kind], and are open to "interpretation" and which are never really resolved until "something goes wrong".

I would submit as an analogy a parallel in the military re "conduct unbecoming an officer" as a charge in a military court proceeding. To some, there is no doubt as to what it means; to others it is nothing more than a gotcha piece of junk that can mean, be applied, at the whim of some superior.

If this officer was ever given a direct "order" re training that they participated in, and their role in such a situation was to do such and such, then it is being argued in this case that they violated a direct order. Whether they are being thrown under the bus is sure to be raised in what is almost a universal response in police depts to termination.

This situation reminds me for some reason as the military's "desertion in the face of the enemy" charge-a kind of euphuism for cowardice; "supposedly" a solder is NOT allowed to retreat until given a direct order to do so, even if they are not in a location where they have any communication with their superiors even if the soldier perceives that the enemy exists in overwhelming numbers and firepower. And how would "surrender" fit in, legally. IMO one question always leads to another re what's on paper, what's the standard for applying that "rule", and often a perception of a need for a scapegoat.

The chief of police is ALSO under the gun as to why he wasn't able to "motivate/instill" in this officer "bravery" over and above the "call of duty"--this officer's behavior is a direct reflection on the chief's ability to "lead". The distinction between being brave and being foolhardy is not lost on the folks in the trenches (as if it's always a cut & dry decision).


JackInCT - 23-2-2018 at 23:43

I'm going to tie in two related aspects to the police officer stationed at the school, (1) is going to be Donald's "interpretation" of his actions via this CNN article, & (2) following up on my previous comments re the police being tantamount to a paramilitary force in the USA; and to include in this post, something that it is an unknown, just how many civilians are actually aware that such a "concept" actually exists, and what it means/doesn't mean; and it called the "Rules Of Engagement". Whether such "rules" apply to civilian police-well therein lies a tale.

(CNN) President Donald Trump continued to criticize the armed school resource officer in Parkland, Florida, who stayed outside of the school during the shooting, saying during a White House news conference conference that Scot Peterson "doesn't love the children, probably doesn't know the children."

The comments tie into Trump's push to arm some educators, including teachers, to deter school shootings. Trump has argued that officers outside the school don't care about the students the same way teachers do.

"We need offensive capability and we are going to be doing something about it," Trump said.

He added that it is "very, very important that we have offensive capability, as well as defensive capability, within the schools. You really are inviting people to come in and do whatever" without arming educators.

The armed school resource deputy at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School waited outside the school building as the shooting unfolded last week, officials said earlier this week. Peterson never went in after taking a position on the west side of the building, Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said at a news conference.

Peterson resigned after he was suspended without pay by Israel pending an internal investigation into his actions during the shooting that left 17 people dead, Israel said. Peterson was eligible for retirement.

Trump has seized on the story, slamming Peterson by name in an attempt to prove that more people inside schools needs to be armed in case of a shooting.

Trump told reporters earlier on Friday that Peterson "certainly did a poor job" and was a "coward."

A Rules Of Engagement search results in a huge number of hits with all kinds of folks putting in their perspectives, to include additional combat "rules". Here is but one of the hits URLs. At this point no one really expects Donald to know what he is talking about, or to even make any effort to understand how systems go about their day in/day out work, and more importantly the policies/rules/procedures/etc., that govern that work to include whether there ever can be a 'one size fits all' 'orders of the day' (who gets the finger of blame pointed at them, especially when everyone is very upset and demands answers),

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/haditha/themes/roe.html


scholar - 25-2-2018 at 03:49

[I started a response to one of MM's posts, but I don't have time to make a good presentation right now, so I hope to do so at a later time.]waveysmiley


JackInCT - 25-2-2018 at 04:15

One of the possibly interesting solutions that I NEVER see mentioned is to have these "school resources officers" [a euphuism if I have heard one--they're cops with arrest authority, no if, and's, or but's; to expect them to defuse things like fights in a school with hundreds of students based on forming "personal relationships" is pie in the sky] have K-9 dogs.

My neighbor, who has moved, and is African American, and a senior member of the local PD, believes that criminals have an inherent ('unconscious' if that suits you) fear of dogs.

Yes, I don't think that anyone has ever forgotten the pictures of the police dogs used in the civil rights demonstrations way way back when. Yes they are associated with police brutality.

You can't have it both ways re candy coating what needs to be done re ambush type school shooters. If seeing a big dog patrolling the hallways on a leash, and like visually impaired folks service dogs that are never ever suppose to be petted, than go for it IMO.

My following comments are in regard to central cities high schools.

Yes I know what the community is going to say about dogs, and Yes I know how many self-righteous community members volunteer to show up at lunch time every day to help out in keeping order-Ø.

The community does NOT want to get its hand dirty re the fights that break out in schools, and the taunts, bullying, punches, etc., that goes on among the combatants--that's what they are-combatants, and quite possibly future gang members. The two faced so called community leaders who don't want juveniles arrested in school for physical assaults that if they occurred off grounds would get them arrested are phonies.


LSemmens - 25-2-2018 at 09:38

The issue is that the "do gooders" have prevented teachers, and parents, for that fact, from ensuring proper discipline. All some of these kids needed was a good hard swift kick in the pants at the appropriate point in life and most of these events are likely to have never occurred.


marymary100 - 25-2-2018 at 11:23

https://i.redd.it/xxtuiq2go9i01.jpg


JackInCT - 25-2-2018 at 21:45

Quote:
Originally posted by LSemmens
... All some of these kids needed was a good hard swift kick in the pants at the appropriate point in life and most of these events are likely to have never occurred.


Right proper looking group of lads who wouldn't hurt a fly. And whenever the order came down from the top to go off to war, they wouldn't hesitate for a moment (the only question is not IF the order would ever come down from the top, but when).


JackInCT - 27-2-2018 at 00:47

Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump said Monday he would have stormed into the Florida high school to stop the gunman perpetrating the nation's latest mass shooting "even if I didn't have a weapon" as he lambasted the inaction of a sheriff's deputy assigned to the school.

"You don't know until you test it, but I think, I really believe I'd run in there, even if I didn't have a weapon, and I think most of the people in this room would have done that too," Trump told a gathering of US governors at the White House.

Please Note: Donald did NOT say HOW he would stop such a gunman. At the level of a total guess, I would presume that, due to reasons of national security, he did not want to reveal that he now has Superman level x-ray vision and like the robot in the olde movie "The Day That The Earth Stood Still", he can wipe out whole armies with a glance.

Boy are those of us in the olde USA lucky or what to have a man like him at the helm; reminds me of Capt Ahab on the Pequod for some reason.


Redwolf5150 - 27-2-2018 at 04:41

Quote:
Originally posted by JackInCT
Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump said Monday he would have stormed into the Florida high school to stop the gunman perpetrating the nation's latest mass shooting "even if I didn't have a weapon" as he lambasted the inaction of a sheriff's deputy assigned to the school.

"You don't know until you test it, but I think, I really believe I'd run in there, even if I didn't have a weapon, and I think most of the people in this room would have done that too," Trump told a gathering of US governors at the White House.

Please Note: Donald did NOT say HOW he would stop such a gunman. At the level of a total guess, I would presume that, due to reasons of national security, he did not want to reveal that he now has Superman level x-ray vision and like the robot in the olde movie "The Day That The Earth Stood Still", he can wipe out whole armies with a glance.

Boy are those of us in the olde USA lucky or what to have a man like him at the helm; reminds me of Capt Ahab on the Pequod for some reason.


"Cadet Bone Spurs" has never run a day in his life.


John_Little - 27-2-2018 at 08:12

Old Donald draft dodger leaving by the basement door.....


JackInCT - 27-2-2018 at 13:51

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
Old Donald draft dodger leaving by the basement door.....


It can be argued that the draft/conscription exists for the sole purpose of providing cannon fodder for the USA ruling class and their zeal for making money by any & all means, but especially for the military-industrial complex which in large part are the barons who are the core of the ruling class.

These barons in turn do everything to see to it that like minded individuals get to roam the halls of the USA Congress. Going to war is done to enrich the barons who are heedless of the human costs on both sides of the battlefield. And it is not lost that these baaad countries are non-Caucasians/non-Christians--there is racist and bigotry inherent in the USA politicians choice of enemies re playing to their constituents base instincts. And for some, the battlefield goings on satisfy some blood lust sport type need.

So avoiding the draft is perceived in some quarters as a real smart goal to be accomplished by any means that can be had. It has nothing to do with cowardice but rather, at the individual level, finding oneself as a prisoner of some social and political system that views all others as objects and hence expendable.

BEING SUCCESSFUL IN AVOIDING THE DRAFT IS A PERSONAL VICTORY in the face of a culture that glorifies war via the necessary evil route mentality and making a good living in the process--and roundly condemning one and all who don't think like that.


John_Little - 27-2-2018 at 15:52

Not sure Donald sees it quite like that.


JackInCT - 27-2-2018 at 18:21

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
Not sure Donald sees it quite like that.


Number of US Congressmen: there are 100 senators and 435 members of the House of Representatives

Number of veterans in Congress expected to drop in 2017
November 1, 2016 Articles, Veterans

The total number of military veterans in Congress is expected to fall next year, according to the Military Times. Currently, 102 former service members serve in the House of Representatives and Senate, representing a mere 18 percent of the legislature, the Congressional Research Service Found. Experts say this number will decrease over the course of 2017 as older veterans who served in the conflicts Korea and Vietnam retire from their posts.

There are 25 members of the United States Senate who are veterans [no date in the article].


FYI for the across the ponds folks: there are female branches in all the armed forces.

You're right: Donald is a trend setter alright.


marymary100 - 28-2-2018 at 16:25

Lieutenant Bone Spurs would, apparently, run into the school to save the children even without any weapons. Alrighty then.


JackInCT - 1-3-2018 at 01:19

Quote:
Originally posted by marymary100
..Alrighty then.


I'm afraid your joy is short lived. He just completed a crash course at the Army's Ranger training base (graduated at the head of his class, I'm told). And he is now ready to unleash his awesome power and do to anyone who stands in his way what he did to what's her name-Dilary or something (who by the way is doing her own unleashing in her kitchen baking cookies)!


JackInCT - 1-3-2018 at 18:10

Ooops, my informant made a mistake: Dilary is NOT in the kitchen learning to make cookies; she's in the kitchen learning to eat humble pie.


John_Little - 1-3-2018 at 22:22

3.142.


JackInCT - 2-3-2018 at 00:22

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
3.142.


Now really, do we Yanks, once again, have to show you how to do everything the right way, the first time:

3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693993751058209749445923078164062862089986280348253421170679821480865132823066470938446095505822317253594081 284811174502841027019385211055596446229489549303819644288109756659334461284756482337867831652712019091456485669234603486104543266482133936072602491412 737245870066063155881748815209209628292540917153643678925903600113305305488204665213841469519415116094330572703657595919530921861173819326117931051185 480744623799627495673518857527248912279381830119491298336733624406566430860213949463952247371907021798609437027705392171762931767523846748184676694051 320005681271452635608277857713427577896091736371787214684409012249534301465495853710507922796892589235420199561121290219608640344181598136297747713099 605187072113499999983729780499510597317328160963185950244594553469083026425223082533446850352619311881710100031378387528865875332083814206171776691473 035982534904287554687311595628638823537875937519577818577805321712268066130019278766111959092164201989380952572010654858632788659361533818279682303019 520353018529689957736225994138912497217752834791315155748572424541506959508295331168617278558890750983817546374649393192550604009277016711390098488240 128583616035637076601047101819429555961989467678374494482553797747268471040475346462080466842590694912933136770289891521047521620569660240580381501935 112533824300355876402474964732639141992726042699227967823547816360093417216412199245863150302861829745557067498385054945885869269956909272107975093029 553211653449872027559602364806654991198818347977535663698074265425278625518184175746728909777727938000816470600161452491921732172147723501414419735685 481613611573525521334757418494684385233239073941433345477624168625189835694855620992192221842725502542568876717904946016534668049886272327917860857843 838279679766814541009538837863609506800642251252051173929848960841284886269456042419652850222106611863067442786220391949450471237137869609563643719172 874677646575739624138908658326459958133904780275900994657640789512694683983525957098258226205224894077267194782684826014769909026401363944374553050682 034962524517493996514314298091906592509372

And that's just for starters!!!
But really WE don't mind doing that; it's the least we could do for those that lost what we Americans refer to as the Revolutionary War, and the irony of it all, is that coffee supplanted tea as the warm beverage of choice for most Americans. So, once again, the Great Powers went to war for naught.

For anyone interested in being naughty, take the comp and change just one number, and see if anyone can find the error. And if you also wondering, these kinds of devious thoughts are a natural long establish part of my being.