Karl`s PC Help Forums

Hawaii 0 No
marymary100 - 13-1-2018 at 20:18

Imagine waking up to this


JackInCT - 13-1-2018 at 23:50

No I really can't imagine waking up to something like that.

Probably every single state has some sort of an alert notification system and cell phones (and not just smart phones; it called "Emergency Alerts" on the menu and it has a different ringtone) all have the capability to receive a short message. How vulnerable is any given states system to being hacked..............?

Much more important, the number of people who will be fired (or resign) for this is [fill in the blank].

scholar - 14-1-2018 at 02:36

A news program says a Hawaii state employee "hit the wrong button."

I would imagine everybody here at KF knows that Hawaii is supposed to be ready for a nuclear missile attack from North Korea.

The good news: we have 44 missile interceptors that should be able to knock down any North Korean missile.

The bad news is two-fold:
1the Obama administration cut back on money for missile defense.
2 The interceptors, which should be able to knock down any Noko missile, may fail if two many missiles are fired at us simultaneously. That seems unlikely now, but could happen in the future if Little Rocket Man is allowed enough time to build them.

JackInCT - 14-1-2018 at 03:19

Hawaii is home base for a couple of tsunami warning centers since the entire Pacific is geologically active, and it's been hit by some tsunamis over the years. It's a safe bet that these warning centers are manned 24/7/365, and are tied in with Hawaii's emergency management system.

The websites mention training and simulation excercises, but it wasn't clear if that also means simulated, and tests, of the warning systems down to the civilian population level. If it does that, than it wouldn't be at all that unusual for routine, ongoing tests of the equipment, response times, etc., to occur.

And of course with the heightened anxiety over NK, it wouldn't be a big deal, coding wise, to include incoming missile warnings in the templates for various warnings/alerts.

Hawaii has active volcanoes to worry about too and for the civilian population to have those as well in what must be a pretty comprehensive multi-layered communication system, island wide.

I seem to recall that there are evacuation routes (to higher ground) as well for tsunami warnings. There was a good deal of TV coverage of all this a while back after that major tsunami in Indonesia.

LSemmens - 14-1-2018 at 07:57

Oh! Brown Stuff that comes out of your bottom! It's good to hear that it was a mistake. We receive targeted text messages if there is a severe risk in the vicinity.

Quaver - 14-1-2018 at 09:14

Glad it was a false alarm:)
I don't know what I'm supposed to do if I hear this, head indoors?
Under the bed?

marymary100 - 14-1-2018 at 09:52

There are shelters in Hawaii apparently.

I wonder if there was a similar "button" which said this is a test.

There were frequent tests on the emergency system when I lived in the DC area. That allowed me to find out where the nearest basement/shelter entry was.

If Scotland is ever hit we'll just hold hands and sing for auld lang syne because basements and shelters aren't a thing except for those and such as those.

John_Little - 14-1-2018 at 11:35

The good news is that it seemed to make them wake up and smell the coffee. One woman was a total convert from "bring it on" to2 do whatever it takes to make sure it never happens for real". Things like not provoking North Korea by using insults. And pushing the envelope and playing the diplomacy game like a skilled professional.

Quaver - 14-1-2018 at 13:19

Originally posted by marymary100
If Scotland is ever hit we'll just hold hands and sing for auld lang syne

JackInCT - 14-1-2018 at 14:23

Originally posted by scholar
A news program says a Hawaii state employee "hit the wrong button."

By any chance, does this employee have a name? NO! I don't have to justify to anyone why I want to know it. I just do, and that's reason enough.

By the way, there's a possible aspect to this event that you all across the pond may be unfamiliar with.

I've never lived in Hawaii but there's a real good possibility that this is true, one way or another, in all 50 states.

It's likely that there were serious medical issues to some individuals, etc., as a result of this event. But that cannot automatically result in a lawsuit being filed against the state of Hawaii. In Connecticut you actually need the permission of the legislature to sue the state, i. e., IF you don't get such permission, your lawsuit has no standing in a court. Getting such permission is NOT some pro forma exercise. It happens so infrequently, perhaps rarely, that such legislative action makes the news media. The law about this goes way way back re being enacted. There is NOT a similar prohibition about suing a municipality. Since just about all municipalities are self-insured, the award of a successful lawsuit is borne by the local taxpayers (in terms of the property tax mill rate), i. e., there is actually a line item in the annual municipal budget as to the dollar amount that's expected to be paid out re anticipated successful lawsuits.

FYI: " "Sovereign immunity is something we got from England," said Richard Kay, a University of Connecticut law professor. "It originates in the phrase, `The king can do no wrong.' Nonetheless, in modern times, given all the things a state does ... you want the state accountable for its wrongs." "

Of course the king can't do anything at all wrong because....

You're right, the Royals belong to you, and you're more than welcome to keep them (on your side of the Atlantic); I'll take my chances with Donald at the helm.

John_Little - 14-1-2018 at 14:45

I think we are a lot safer here with the Royals. Whatever I think about the rights and wrongs of monarchy.

LSemmens - 15-1-2018 at 10:35

Put it like this, "Bugga You Jack (in the broadest sense of the name, not you specifically, Jack) I'm OK"

The Americans can keep Donald Duck on their side of the Pond, Queenie, is not such a problem, but, at least she also lives on the other side of another pond. :D

JackInCT - 15-1-2018 at 14:38

CBS News January 15, 2018, 7:19 AM

Inside Hawaii's emergency alert command center; Interview with Hawaii Emergency Management Administrator, Vern Miyagi.


Obviously Mr Miyagi still has his job; obviously the Hawaii civil servant service works?????????????

scholar - 15-1-2018 at 23:55

I heard on a radio talk show that the same drop-down menu had the choice to merely test if the alert system was working, or actually alert people that there is a real emergency. Then, if the person chooses the real emergency alert, there is an interrogation box, are you sure you want to do this? I think the show said the test is run frequently (every day, or every week? They said how often, but I don't remember that detail). The person who sent out the false alert has done the test many, many times. This one time, he chose the wrong option, then clicked right past the question of if he was sure he wanted to do it.

He still works there, but no longer has access to the alert system.

LSemmens - 16-1-2018 at 00:33

So now we know what Mr. Myagi does when he's not in pictures. :D

JackInCT - 16-1-2018 at 01:38

Originally posted by scholar
...He still works there, but no longer has access to the alert system.

AND have you EVER heard anything about whether the ENTIRE shift staff were tested for drugs immediately after this occurred?

I sure haven't!

John_Little - 16-1-2018 at 10:58

The whole thing was caused by a typing error on a drop down menu? You mean the fate of the whole world could depend on the accuracy of a mouse click?

JackInCT - 23-1-2018 at 19:54

Update: CNN article 01/23/18

Verbatim C & P of most of this article:

Story Headline: A false alert about a ballistic missile threat went out January 13 in Hawaii
It took 15 minutes to relay news of false alert on social media

(CNN)When Hawaii pushed out a ballistic missile alert earlier this month, Gov. David Ige knew within two minutes it was a false alarm. But he couldn't hop on Twitter and tell everybody -- because he didn't know his password.

"I have to confess that I don't know my Twitter account login and passwords," Ige told reporters Monday after giving his State of the State address. "I will be putting that on my phone."

The Hawaii Emergency Management Agency issued the alert -- sent to cell phones and broadcast on the airwaves there -- at 8:07 a.m. on January 13. A state official told Ige two minutes later it was false, CNN affiliate KHNL reports.

It took another 15 minutes before the state relayed that news on social media. And it took 38 minutes after the alert was sent for the emergency management agency to send out a second message telling the public it was a false alarm.

Under mounting criticism about the delays, Ige told the Honolulu Star-Advertiser that while he was unable to get into his Twitter account immediately to alert the public, he did during that time make calls to his leadership team at the emergency management agency.

Me Here: apparenty it didn't come up as to why he didn't resign.

He also apparently didn't explain how folks without a twitter account would know.

So apparently all of us need to have an account with every social media under the sun if we are to know that we are about to be blown/not blown to kingdom come.

He also didn't say whether anyone who got a traffic ticket/violation during this period for 'distracted driving' would receive amnesty/pardon.

LSemmens - 24-1-2018 at 00:22

I don't know what all the fuss is about. 38 minutes to "rectify" a stuff up on this scale is pretty good in my book. Yes, it shouldn't have happened and more checks and balances may need to be implemented, but all that may need to be done to "fix" the problem would be another magic mouse click that says "Ooops! We stuffed up!"

scholar - 25-1-2018 at 00:07

I just listened to a discussion in which panel members made an excellent point: This was the Governor! He could have called somebody!

How incompetent was he, that the only way he could think of was to announce it on Twitter, when he didn't know how to get on it?

How about: Phone a TV station! Phone a radio station! Phone a newspaper (who would put it on their own website, immediately)! If he didn't know how to do any of those things, how about finding one competent person in state government to do it for him? Or, tasking one person for the TV, another for radio stations, and a third for newspapers, so they would all be covered quickly?

This emergency management team is the same one that releasedshocked_yellow a screen pick of the emergency management center, with a post-it note on a computer monitor which said: PASSWORD and then gave the password.

Worse, on a larger scale, is the fact that the announcement was pretty much useless as far a public safety was concerned, were the attack real, because no preparations have been made to protect the people, or to instruct them how to protect themselves. The message in effect meant, "Be terrified and say good-by, you may be about to die."

LSemmens - 25-1-2018 at 00:45

Possibly this situation has highlighted some of the inadequacies of the current system that can now be addressed. If it were a "normal" test, these problems may not have been highlighted, so....... It's an ill wind.

JackInCT - 25-1-2018 at 17:38

Originally posted by scholar
I just listened to a discussion in which panel members made an excellent point: This was the Governor! He could have called somebody!

It seems to me that your standards are way too high for the government of Hawaii to achieve, not to mention, perhaps the people of Hawaii themselves.

On this board, which was once consumed with mostly very tech oriented affairs, I'm surprised that no one mentioned a password manager, i. e., either why he didn't have one, OR if he had one why his social media account wasn't on it.

PS: Gov of Hawaii, if you're paying attn to what some of us on this board are saying about you, there are free ones out there AND no nags, no ads, etc.,.

I've been using free Dashlane for quite a few years; and I don't have to bother with their subscription service for its sync capability; on, lets say a new OS install, I simply download the install file, and via the backup copy file of its contents on my primary PC, import that file into the new OS, and its identical to what I have on my primary PC. And there is an app version too.

YES FOLKS, I am that cheap. Yes, cheapskates like me will rue the day for such parsimony if Dashlane goes out of business for financial reasons.

FYI: Dashlane's HQ is in France and they have staff who are quite fluent in English, as well as very responsive, time line wise, re requests for tech support.

I hope someone on their staff caught wind of this fiasco and sent a message to the gov asking him to give their product a try, and for the sake of the sanity of the rest of the world, offered him a lifetime free fee for service re their premium stuff. I hope, and suspect, that the gov's lifetime as gov is short lived when the next election is held.

LSemmens - 26-1-2018 at 02:18

FYI: Dashlane's HQ is in France and they have staff who are quite fluent in English,
Surely that is an anachronism? French? Fluent in English????? Surely you jest?? confused2:D:D

JackInCT - 26-1-2018 at 03:29

Originally posted by LSemmens
Surely that is an anachronism? French? Fluent in English????? Surely you jest?? confused

Sacre bleu, mon ami; la plume de ma tante; Dis-moi si tu sais où elle est. Je l'ai vue ce matin je pense, Mais maintenant elle a disparu. So there you have it.

And now, some poor moderator, likely educated in the classics, will have to make the time to translate my French to ensure that I have not used any obscenities that violate this board's terms of service.

I have it on good authority that machine translations are not allowed on this board!!!nananananananana

JackInCT - 26-1-2018 at 14:50

Update 01/26/18 Early AM Eastern USA Time

FCC: Person who sent false Hawaii missile alert refusing to cooperate

Attribution: ABC News By Jeffrey Cook Jan 25, 2018

Selective c & p of the article

The Hawaii Emergency Management Agency employee who mistakenly sent out a mobile alert warning of an incoming ballistic missile is refusing to cooperate with the Federal Communications Commission investigation, an FCC official said Thursday on Capitol Hill.

At a hearing with the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation, Lisa Fowlkes, the head of the Public Safety and Homeland Security Bureau at the FCC, said the federal agency is pleased with the cooperation from leadership in Hawaii, but disappointed in the refusal from the key employee.

“We share FCC Public Safety Bureau Chief Lisa Fowlkes’s disappointment," Hawaii Emergency Management said in a statement. "The Hawaii Emergency Management Agency has encouraged its employees to cooperate in all ongoing investigations. While cooperation is in the end a matter of choice for each individual, we hope that anyone who is not cooperating will reconsider and assist in bringing these matters to a satisfactory conclusion.”

The erroneous alert sent to the cell phones of Hawaiians resulted in panic across the state, including people abandoning their vehicles on the highway. A video of a man putting his child in a manhole went viral.

Me here: still no word as to whether any drug testing was requested, & performed as well as whether he is still on the payroll to include IF still not fired/suspended what exactly his new duties are.

The matter of a man putting his child into a manhole was obviously recorded by someone; why they did that if they really believed there was a threat, i. e., took the time to make the recording needs further scrutiny re motivation, purpose, etc.,. IF they really believed there was a threat who would be left to see it.

Video uTube URL (multiple hits of varying lengths): Run Time: 00:30

On the page with the hits for this vid, are a number of uploads of vids of people saying a final goodbye. While skepticism is always in order as to whether the 'presenter' is genuine, it's hard to believe that ALL of them are contrived for ulterior motivation purposes.

John_Little - 26-1-2018 at 15:12

That was my plan. Back in the day. Go down the drain. Well, one way or another.

JackInCT - 26-1-2018 at 16:33

Originally posted by John_Little
That was my plan. Back in the day. Go down the drain. Well, one way or another.

There are, theoretically, criminal aspects to the matter. I find it rather amazing that so far there are no reports of injuries, property damage, etc.,. But that's may be reflecting the quality of media reporting. I find it especially amazing that there are no reports of anyone going into cardiac arrest.

Just for the record, there is in the USA a constitutional right AGAINST self-incrimination. (5th Amendment). Like anything else in the law, I would imagine that it is NOT a "perfect" right applying to any and all situations. But as a for instance, in a criminal case, the defendant cannot be called/compelled to testify; they can waive that right. After all anything you say can be used against you once you do.

In the case of a "routine" motor vehicle stop by a police officer, you're not legally obligated to say anything [you do have to provide yourlicense, registration, proof of insurance upon request], i. e., you cannot be arrested for being verbally "uncooperative" [as opposed to being"behaviorally" uncooperative such as you cannot refuse the officer's order to get out of the car] which apparently is the choice of words for media reports when someone does that.

As an aside to the above paragraph you do have a right, while still in the car, to ask the officer if he has a legal right to order you out of it as well as what particular law is applicable, and see what he says is the law on the matter--you're building proactively a case for a complaint to Internal Affairs especially if he/she gets angry/gets into a 'threatening' posture/etc.,.

If you're not willing to exercise your rights, you can't expect anyone else to do that for you.

John_Little - 26-1-2018 at 17:45

Good point.

scholar - 27-1-2018 at 03:01

Originally posted by JackInCT
I find it rather amazing that so far there are no reports of injuries

This article mentions some

The massive heart attack experienced by a man after he said good-bye, in anticipation of the missile, was the most severe. A fall, an anxiety attack, and a car collision are the related problems that were called in.

[I tried to do a quote box, but the article was cut-and-paste resistant.]

I suppose there is a likelihood of other injuries that did not result in calls.

They were not ready. It's a government operation, after all, in a state run by Democrats.

JackInCT - 27-1-2018 at 03:46

Originally posted by scholar
I suppose there is a likelihood of other injuries that did not result in calls

For some unconscious reason, your post triggered this possibility-suicide & suicide pacts. Not like it only happens in the movies; there were people who jumped from the World Trade Center although some argue it was not "suicidal", i. e., escaping the heat is often mentioned. That's sophistry at its "finest" IMO. Can't really presume that we would have heard about that by now. Can't really presume that anyone/any couple going down that road in this day and age would have uploaded their final goodbye to some media site. Back to the notion of who would be left to see it.

LSemmens - 28-1-2018 at 02:03

Jack, the rules state "all posts must be in ENGLISH" you have been warned. nananana You are a Frog disguised as an Englishman living in Yankland, and I claim my reward. ;)

Seriously, putting the kid down the drain, may well have saved his life, if the attack were genuine, Kudos to dad for thinking of it. As I have already observed, despite the pandemonium caused it may well have been a fruitful exercise. As to the bloke refusing to testify. Given the popular concept of the American psyche, it might just be that he is afraid of "The Man" making him a scapegoat. He might also be concerned about litigation.

JackInCT - 28-1-2018 at 17:23

Originally posted by LSemmens
Seriously, putting the kid down the drain, may well have saved his life, if the attack were genuine, Kudos to dad for thinking of it....

FYI: In case a drain seems like a good place to hide in an emergency, or play in for that matter, you would be well advised to know in advance what the purpose of the drain is. Drains in many instances are "repositories" of methane gas (AND several other forms of gas) that result from the natural breakdown of organic materials, and not just fecal materials either. Some septic systems are so large that they have a manhole cover which allow for access re maintenance, etc.,. But you had better not just take the cover off and enter--the air inside has to be purged

Every once in a while, probably a great while, someone loses their life INSIDE a septic system from the gas(es). The term "sewer gas" is really not just one type of gas, but can be several types.

And please, don't ever throw a firecracker into an open (outdoor) drain.

LSemmens - 29-1-2018 at 23:37

Yes, Jack, you are quite correct in your analysis of such systems. However, the choice between the certainty becoming a pile of ash on the pavement and a possibility of becoming one with whatever is at the bottom of said drain might be a determining factor. I think I'd opt for the drain, too.

scholar - 30-1-2018 at 23:33

The investigation's report is not what had been told to news reporters.

The worker had a history of confusing warning drills with real-life events, once with respect to a fire drill and another time with respect to a tsunami warning, but they kept him in his position anyway!shocked_yellow

He has been fired, and the head of the agency has resigned. Another employee has been suspended.

So, Jack, there has been some measure of reasonable response.

The article indicates the Governor did not understand what had happened until he read the report.lips_sealed That sounds like something of an initial coverup, or at least some evasiveness, until the General who led the investigation dug deeper.

JackInCT - 30-1-2018 at 23:54

Thanks for the update; I've not seen it yet on the media sites, but I will check.

I would like to introduce another issue for this event, and I have zero idea if its applicable here.

It is the major issue in many, many jobs called "zoning out" AKA "zone hypnosis" [and other slang terms]--it means "To stop paying attention and think about something else, or to think about nothing". It is an 'occupational hazard' for those jobs where for long periods of time on a shift, nothing, absolutely nothing is occurring, and you're just sitting there. The phenomena is exacerbated by those jobs that have rotating shift schedules, i. e., week 1-first shift, week 2-2nd shift, etc.,.

It is a very common problem in RRing where the drone of the diesel engine becomes a narcotic lullaby; and becoming susceptible to it gets worse as you get older.

It is a long known phenomena and has been studied. It has gotten a great deal of attn. as "highway hypnosis": Highway hypnosis, also known as white line fever, is a mental state in which a person can drive a truck or automobile great distances, responding to external events in the expected, safe and correct manner with no recollection of having consciously done so. In this state, the driver's conscious mind is apparently fully focused elsewhere, while seemingly still processing the information needed to drive safely. Highway hypnosis is a manifestation of the common process of automaticity, where the conscious and subconscious minds are able to concentrate on different things.

Every now and then media articles will relate events about airline pilots falling asleep in the cockpit.

I am wondering in this post if the root problem was NOT his mental acuity, but other issues that his managers themselves had no training in, or, if they did, failed to recognize that their subordinates were really not suited for their work assignments [and with related organizational issues oftheir being too lazy to reassign him and then have to train someone new].

There are many desk type jobs in the military that are as boring as any work can possibly be, and it involves sitting at a console in the middle of nowhere with an after work social life so far removed from civilization that watching paint dry becomes exciting.

LSemmens - 31-1-2018 at 01:39

From the reports that he has had issues in the past, and others were concerned about his acuity. Begs the question, why is he allowed to issue such a warning without any checks and balances. i.e. two buttons on opposite sides of the room where two people must operate them at the same time, or the like.

JackInCT - 31-1-2018 at 02:52

Originally posted by LSemmens
...two buttons on opposite sides of the room where two people must operate them at the same time, or the like.

OK, let's go at it a different way re your question:

The Peter Principle is an observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach the levels of their respective incompetence. The Peter Principle is based on the logical idea that competent employees will continue to be promoted, but at some point will be promoted into positions for which they are incompetent, and they will then remain in those positions because of the fact that they do not demonstrate any further competence that would get them recognized for additional promotion. According to the Peter Principle, every position in a given hierarchy will eventually be filled by employees who are incompetent to fulfill the job duties of their respective positions.

(1) State agencies, across the board, have monopolies re their purpose for existence,
(2) Most state agencies do not provide a tangible "product", I. e., they provide "services",
(3) Most of these services do NOT lend themselves to metrics that quantify how "well" they provide these services, to include the speed with which such services are provided to its "customers"/clients to the point of completion of services; some customers are in the "system" forever and ever,
(4) Most of the training in many state agencies is either a very brief short term "orientation" classes, but for the most part are OJT; the OJT is basically an indoctrination/reeducation into the culture of the agency [the state police have a lengthy training academy + field work with seniorpatrol officers],
(5) There is literally no motivation for innovation, i. e., maybe I'm wrong re zero occurrences anywhere, but an employee is not going to get a "bonus"/pay raise for innovation ideas, nor very often is anyone in "mgt" going to ask for any, to include the most important innovation which is a virtual total department reorganization from top to bottom.

I once worked at a state agency where there was an opening for a "director"; the agency head for this region stated that he will be hiring someone from OUTSIDE the agency, I. e., someone who is NOT a current employee. He had his reasons, but he seemed to me oblivious to the current employees and was sending a clear non-verbal message that none of them was management material. He never did spell out why he felt that way, NOR did he ever state what the current employees on the roster would have to do to be considered for future promotions.

The "system" was full of managers like that, and to add fuel to the fire, NONE of the agency head bosses were likely ever aware of his decision to hire an outsider, i. e., they were simply out there in never never land and rarely, if ever, visited the 'trenches'. And don't expect members of the legislature to act as a kind of de facto board of directors to oversee agency operations (or have management consultants act in that capacity).

LSemmens - 1-2-2018 at 08:14

I had not considered my comment, per se, as a question, more an observation.

I have no concerns with your observation re: the Peter principle, thus it has always been, for time immemorial.