Karl`s PC Help Forums

Young black males converting to Islam.
John_Little - 20-8-2013 at 14:26

There was an item on the news over the weekend about the large number of young black males from Christian families becoming radicalised Muslims.

This news came after I had just read a book about the Viking invasion of Britain (although it wasn't technically "Britain" back in the 9th Century) and how the Saxons were steadily converting the Norsemen to Christianity - often by force or bribary.

It occurred to me that if you can change your religion at the drop of a hat in that way, you can't have a great deal of real faith in any religion. I mean, if you are going to believe in a God, surely it has to be a whole hearted belief to be of any value and that fact that people can change their beliefs so easily does make you wonder what they want from religion in the first place.


marymary100 - 20-8-2013 at 16:02

I disagree oddly enough. It might just be that one religion's version of God is more rational for you than your own. I'm about to begin a thread on superstition but when I was thinking about it it made me wonder how much religion is actually just superstition.


scholar - 20-8-2013 at 23:39

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
There was an item on the news over the weekend about the large number of young black males from Christian families becoming radicalised Muslims.

This news came after I had just read a book about the Viking invasion of Britain (although it wasn't technically "Britain" back in the 9th Century) and how the Saxons were steadily converting the Norsemen to Christianity - often by force or bribary.

It occurred to me that if you can change your religion at the drop of a hat in that way, you can't have a great deal of real faith in any religion. I mean, if you are going to believe in a God, surely it has to be a whole hearted belief to be of any value and that fact that people can change their beliefs so easily does make you wonder what they want from religion in the first place.


I think you and I are near enough to the same age, that we came from a culture which mostly subscribed to the idea that some ideas are true when compared to reality, and that others are false when compared to reality. Truth-oriented people want to know things as they really are, and deal with life on a reality-oriented basis.

Dr. Francis Schaeffer wrote a great deal about thinkers and culture-shapers who had given up on the idea of rational, propositional truth. Instead, they held that contradictory things could be true, so one could not really know anything in a meaningful way.

Those who have grown up since then have thought in terms of subjective truth, as if each person could establish his own set of truths, which he might even change, and others could have their own truths.

This has manifested in the Christian denominations as buffet Christianity--people who take the parts they like and pass over parts they don't like. Historic Christians have been alarmed when this takes the form of passing up prohibitions against categories of sin (e.g. sexual sin, or drunkenness).

A person converting to historic Christianity would find a whole system of beliefs grounded in truths about reality. And, a person who converted to Islam ("Submission") would find concrete expectations with respect to living a life of submission to Allah as Mohammed described it.


LSemmens - 21-8-2013 at 01:34

@ Scholar: "Wat you talkin 'bout, Willis?"

I tend to agree with John's thinking, though, that your faith in whatever version of God cannot we well founded if you can change, on a "whim". It does reflect on the society and the relevant families though, if they must join a radical sect to find their god. We taught our children about our beliefs and have encouraged them to make their own, informed, decisions. Some have chosen to go the agnostic route, however, none have disrespected our beliefs to the point of joining a group that is the antithesis of our belief set.

I'm not saying that the Christian way of life is perfect, it should be, but our society is largely based upon the Christian principle and it is a sad reflection on society if our youth feel that they must reject it for what appears to be a violent and totalitarian lifestyle.


John_Little - 21-8-2013 at 08:21

The news item didn't go into any depth but I formed the impression that it was more about disillusion with the White West and seeing Islam as being their enemy's enemy.

I can see what Scholar is getting at and he does have a point. And I agree with Leigh that it is the violent and totalitarian lifestyle that seems to be the attraction in this instance.


Katzy - 21-8-2013 at 10:13

Funny how things that have rules about "Thou shalt not kill" are responsible for more deaths than anything else, innit?


John_Little - 21-8-2013 at 10:15

waveysmiley


scholar - 23-8-2013 at 00:20

Quote:
Originally posted by Katzy
Funny how things that have rules about "Thou shalt not kill" are responsible for more deaths than anything else, innit?

Actually, more deaths came from Stalin and the USSR Communists, or from the Chinese Communists, than have come from Christianity or Islam in a comparable span of time.


John_Little - 23-8-2013 at 13:59

What about hitler? Afghanistan? Iraq? and now Syria and Egypt.


scholar - 23-8-2013 at 14:26

Quote:
it is just false to say that Christians or Muslims cause the most deaths, when the deaths from people like Stalin are greater by orders of magnitude).


marymary100 - 23-8-2013 at 15:43

Where's your empirical evidence for that "fact" scholar?


scholar - 23-8-2013 at 16:45

Quote:
Originally posted by marymary100
Where's your empirical evidence for that "fact" scholar?

Which part?

The millions that were killed by the non-religious or anti-religious are in the history books. Hitler's people killed those of many populous countries of Europe, and Stalin and the Chinese Communists killed in the very large countries of the USSR and China.

Iraq and Afghanistan are significant countries, but they are not on the same scale.
Here is a site that mentions various estimates of those who have died in the Iraq War. All but one is under 200,000.


marymary100 - 23-8-2013 at 17:09

Sorry scholar I thought I was quoting you but I must have hit edit. Anyway the bit I've left was the bit I was asking you to back up.


Badgergirl - 23-8-2013 at 17:40

http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/fourthought

The first podcast on this page by Yasmin Hai from 21st August is worth a listen.