Karl`s PC Help Forums

Cut us a little slack, please?
janet - 29-3-2008 at 11:55

I am quietly seething.

I don't actually think of myself as stupid, insane, irrational or illiterate.

Stupid? Doubt it - along with the idea of being illiterate, the fact that I have a terminal degree, two books to my name and two more in editing, 30+ published articles, do the job I do and the consultancy I do - well, I'd argue I'm not actually stupid, dim or dull.

Insane? More likely - I have teenagers. :} But if I'm insane - well, that doesn't bode well for other areas of my work.

Irrational? I realise that some don't think the social sciences are worth much but doing the job I do, holding the qualifications I do, etc. - argues at least SOME criticiality and rationality.

Etc....

But - here's the kicker - I'm a believing Christian.

Therefore, according to recent posts here, I *am* insane, offensive (by the nature of my beliefs), irrational, etc.

Cut us some slack, folks?

Why, yes, this IS a rant. Feel free to delete it if you like but I'm rather tired of coming here to read the same thing again and again. If people have problems with particular beliefs or expressions thereof, fine - but let's stop tarring *one third of the planet* with the same brush, ok?


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 12:28

Why is it acceptable to you to post this, re-inforcing as it does the idea that just because you are a believing christian you are at liberty to be offensive to others but those others aren't at liberty to be offensive to you and your views?


janet - 29-3-2008 at 12:33

WHERE have I been offensive to others?

WHERE have I been offensive to the views of others?

There are those here whose views I do not agree with. I respect their right to their views, and though I may debate about some of them, I do NOT tell them that they are insane, irrational, etc.


LSemmens - 29-3-2008 at 12:45

I understand your frustration, Janet. I enjoy intelligent discussion, but, like you, I find it tedious when, for want of a reasoned response, wild generalisations accusing particular groups of being irrational etc, are made. We are, mostly, adult human beings here and should be able to state our case without resort to disparaging remarks about a group with whom you do not agree.


LSemmens - 29-3-2008 at 13:09

Methinks he (SRD) doth protest a little too much!

No mention was made of a particular person, but many of these baseless accusations regarding those who hold to Christian tenets being, quote, enough to put any sane person off the subject, unquote. From another thread that implied that anyone who held any form of religious belief was insane. Your response further down the same thread, although flagged with a smiley to indicate jest, would tend to indicate you feel the same.


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 13:24

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
WHERE have I been offensive to others?

WHERE have I been offensive to the views of others?

There are those here whose views I do not agree with. I respect their right to their views, and though I may debate about some of them, I do NOT tell them that they are insane, irrational, etc.
I have now posted twice that I find the whole idea of religious belief offensive, both personally and generally but you insist on continuing to post, that is how I feel you are being offensive. I am fully of the opinion that you should still post such stuff, but in so doing you should expect a similar response from me. As has been mentioned before, it seems that you are requiring one rule for christians and another for those who find such belief offensive.
Like many believers you are starting from the proposition that your beliefs are reasonable and that anyone who might find such belief offensive are being unreasonable.
It is actually very simple, but you don't seem to be able to get your head round it, hence, maybe, some may doubt your analytical abilities.


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 13:25

Quote:
Originally posted by LSemmens
Methinks he (SRD) doth protest a little too much!

No mention was made of a particular person, but many of these baseless accusations regarding those who hold to Christian tenets being, quote, enough to put any sane person off the subject, unquote. From another thread that implied that anyone who held any form of religious belief was insane. Your response further down the same thread, although flagged with a smiley to indicate jest, would tend to indicate you feel the same.
Now why aren't I surprised to find you on this particular bandwagon?


janet - 29-3-2008 at 13:40

Quote:
Originally posted by SRD
Quote:
Originally posted by janet
WHERE have I been offensive to others?

WHERE have I been offensive to the views of others?

There are those here whose views I do not agree with. I respect their right to their views, and though I may debate about some of them, I do NOT tell them that they are insane, irrational, etc.
I have now posted twice that I find the whole idea of religious belief offensive, both personally and generally but you insist on continuing to post, that is how I feel you are being offensive. I am fully of the opinion that you should still post such stuff, but in so doing you should expect a similar response from me. As has been mentioned before, it seems that you are requiring one rule for christians and another for those who find such belief offensive.
Like many believers you are starting from the proposition that your beliefs are reasonable and that anyone who might find such belief offensive are being unreasonable.
It is actually very simple, but you don't seem to be able to get your head round it, hence, maybe, some may doubt your analytical abilities.


I've asked before and will ask again - how is it offensive to you that I believe something?

I can see that it would be offensive if I said that those who did not agree with me were wrong, etc.

But I have NOT said that.

How are my beliefs offensive?

And I am not requiring different rules.

I have said that I will not call people names, etc., because of their beliefs - but apparently that is not accorded to me.


marymary100 - 29-3-2008 at 13:41

Well I can see from your two posts on this matter Janet that you are "quietly seething".

However, speaking as a believer who has real problems with certain section of the bible, I feel that it is fair enough that some people whatever they like but it is a problem for me when those people tell me I'm wrong because I don't blindly follow their path.

Any belief system should be open to scrutiny and doubt.

You, and anyone on this forum, can believe or disbelieve anything you choose to.

I think there's precious little slack being shown by various believers and disbelievers.

Enquiring minds though should be welcomed. Often the most ardent believer was once a questioner.

Just because someone has reached the end of their own journey towards the divine, doesn't mean they shouldn't accept that others are on a path of their own.

This section of the forums is likely to be lively and have argument. It does not mean that we don't value one another as fellow posters just because we have different values and beliefs.

There are some who post in RSE forums elsewhere whose rigid thought patterns and endless postings quoting chapter and verse turn others away from their chosen path. I'd be disappointed if that happened here.


janet - 29-3-2008 at 13:43

I understand all that.

My point is that responses to individual posts are being generalised.

I have no told anyone they are wrong, that they are insane, irrational, etc. but I'm told that I must be these things because I am a believer, am religious, etc.

What I'm asking is that people differentiate between an idea that annoys them, and the rest of the people who are members of the same group.

If I didn't think belief systems should be open to criticality, questioning and doubt, I'd hardly teach theology in the UK university system - what differentiates higher ed here is that element of criticality (I know that a lot of people know that but it's worth reiterating). (Nor am I say that there is no criticality in secondary ed!).


marymary100 - 29-3-2008 at 13:51

We're a very critical bunch.........;)


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 14:15

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
Quote:
Originally posted by SRD
Quote:
Originally posted by janet
WHERE have I been offensive to others?

WHERE have I been offensive to the views of others?

There are those here whose views I do not agree with. I respect their right to their views, and though I may debate about some of them, I do NOT tell them that they are insane, irrational, etc.
I have now posted twice that I find the whole idea of religious belief offensive, both personally and generally but you insist on continuing to post, that is how I feel you are being offensive. I am fully of the opinion that you should still post such stuff, but in so doing you should expect a similar response from me. As has been mentioned before, it seems that you are requiring one rule for christians and another for those who find such belief offensive.
Like many believers you are starting from the proposition that your beliefs are reasonable and that anyone who might find such belief offensive are being unreasonable.
It is actually very simple, but you don't seem to be able to get your head round it, hence, maybe, some may doubt your analytical abilities.


I've asked before and will ask again - how is it offensive to you that I believe something?

I can see that it would be offensive if I said that those who did not agree with me were wrong, etc.

But I have NOT said that.

How are my beliefs offensive?

And I am not requiring different rules.

I have said that I will not call people names, etc., because of their beliefs - but apparently that is not accorded to me.
Because they are a complete denial of humanity, a means of suggesting that I am less than I am. That is offensive.


janet - 29-3-2008 at 14:16

How are my beliefs a denial of humanity? That's a serious question.


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 14:45

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
How are my beliefs a denial of humanity? That's a serious question.
By suggesting that there is an external, life giving, force. By suggesting that there is purpose or meaning to our existence, all these are contra-humanitarian.


janet - 29-3-2008 at 14:49

I don't see that, I have to admit.

I can see that you don't agree with my views.

I can't however, see that this makes my beliefs *offensive* to you.

Are you suggesting that by simply saying, "I am a Christian/Muslim/Asatru/Druid" someone is making an offensive statement?


marymary100 - 29-3-2008 at 14:56

Are you saying SRD that you find the whole notion of "belief in external forces" offensive? Are you saying that posting about external, life-giving forces at all is offensive? That would be an interesting discussion if you wanted to go down that route in a separate thread.


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 15:04

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
I don't see that, I have to admit.

I can see that you don't agree with my views.

I can't however, see that this makes my beliefs *offensive* to you.

Are you suggesting that by simply saying, "I am a Christian/Muslim/Asatru/Druid" someone is making an offensive statement?
Yes. But I am not suggesting that the statement shouldn't be made, just that those who make the statement should understand how offensive it can be, and thus to accept that a response from someone who is personally offended should be expected.


janet - 29-3-2008 at 15:38

I still don't understand why you find it offensive.

I understand that you disagree with it.

But I don't understand why it is *offensive*.


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 15:50

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
I still don't understand why you find it offensive.

I understand that you disagree with it.

But I don't understand why it is *offensive*.
It seems strange that someone who has such a command of the language, and the education that you have that you can't understand how, if something offends, it is offensive.


janet - 29-3-2008 at 16:09

It offends you - I understand that.

I do not understand WHY it offends you that I have beliefs that you do not.

I can understand why some of the actions which come from various beliefs are offensive.

I can not, however, understand how someone else's beliefs - particularly beliefs held by the vast majority of the rest of the world (if you are really including all religious belief) can be offensive.


scholar - 29-3-2008 at 16:23

Simon and Janet,
Please allow me to test an idea as to where Simon's sense of offense lies, for his reaction.

Is it something like this: Simon thinks man is sufficient unto himself, and the Christian faith makes him out to presently be less, either dependent, presently defective, or in need of restoration to harmony with God--which is a kind of insult.

Those who think they are righteous "need no physician."

Am I close, Simon?:)


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 16:23

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
It offends you - I understand that.

I do not understand WHY it offends you that I have beliefs that you do not.

I can understand why some of the actions which come from various beliefs are offensive.

I can not, however, understand how someone else's beliefs - particularly beliefs held by the vast majority of the rest of the world (if you are really including all religious belief) can be offensive.
All that shows is that you are lacking in understanding, not that anything is, or is not, so.


janet - 29-3-2008 at 16:30

So why not explain it? Not just restate it but explain it?


scholar - 29-3-2008 at 16:43

Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
Simon and Janet,
Please allow me to test an idea as to where Simon's sense of offense lies, for his reaction.

Is it something like this: Simon thinks man is sufficient unto himself, and the Christian faith makes him out to presently be less, either dependent, presently defective, or in need of restoration to harmony with God--which is a kind of insult.

Those who think they are righteous "need no physician."

Am I close, Simon?:)
I posted in the same minute you did, Simon, and Janet responded to you, so it got kicked out of the screen (if your browser window compares to mine), so I thought I'd move it down and again seek a response--if you wish.:)


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 17:13

Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
Simon and Janet,
Please allow me to test an idea as to where Simon's sense of offense lies, for his reaction.

Is it something like this: Simon thinks man is sufficient unto himself, and the Christian faith makes him out to presently be less, either dependent, presently defective, or in need of restoration to harmony with God--which is a kind of insult.

Those who think they are righteous "need no physician."

Am I close, Simon?:)
It's an interesting thought, and may skim the edge of what I'm saying, but it isn't to the point I am trying to make in this thread, the point I am trying to make in this thread is that janet feels, maybe correctly or maybe not, that it is wrong for some of us to use statements about her beliefs that she may find offensive and all I am asking for is for her to consider that, due to the fact that I find any statement of belief offensive she should accept the occasional jibe or stop making statements that I may find offensive.


janet - 29-3-2008 at 17:16

And I'm still asking why you find beliefs offensive.

And how you can say you have no beliefs.


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 17:19

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
So why not explain it? Not just restate it but explain it?
I have, that is the explanation, you are like the little child that keeps on saying "But why?". I don't say to you when you say "I believe in God." "Why do you believe in god?" I accept that you do, you won't offer me the same courtesy. It seems that I am only allowed to take offense at things that you understand.


janet - 29-3-2008 at 17:21

You say you have no beliefs.

Yet you also say that my beliefs are offensive to your view of humanity.

Therefore you have a belief about what humanity is, yes?

I do not understand why you feel that religious beliefs are offensive.

I've asked you to explain and instead of explaining, you compare me to a child.


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 17:25

The problem with having two threads on related subjects is that the arguments get conflated, if you want the answer to that question get back to the other thread, this thread is for you to justify why it is Ok for you to rant about offense given to you whilst quite happily carrying on giving offense to others.


janet - 29-3-2008 at 17:28

Actually, no.

This thread was for me to ask people to stop saying that Christians are insane, irrational, etc.

I have asked, within this thread, why my beliefs are offensive to you, and as far as I can see, the answer is, "they are".


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 17:35

post: #327859


SRD - 29-3-2008 at 17:43

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
Actually, no.

This thread was for me to ask people to stop saying that Christians are insane, irrational, etc.
No you did not, you specifically explained why you thought the comments, as aimed at you personally, weren't correct.
Quote:
I am quietly seething.

I don't actually think of myself as stupid, insane, irrational or illiterate.

Stupid? Doubt it - along with the idea of being illiterate, the fact that I have a terminal degree, two books to my name and two more in editing, 30+ published articles, do the job I do and the consultancy I do - well, I'd argue I'm not actually stupid, dim or dull.

Insane? More likely - I have teenagers. :} But if I'm insane - well, that doesn't bode well for other areas of my work.

Irrational? I realise that some don't think the social sciences are worth much but doing the job I do, holding the qualifications I do, etc. - argues at least SOME criticiality and rationality.

Etc....

But - here's the kicker - I'm a believing Christian.

Therefore, according to recent posts here, I *am* insane, offensive (by the nature of my beliefs), irrational, etc.


Badgergirl - 29-3-2008 at 23:06

Simon. I would like to ask the same question as Janet, but from the point of view of someone who does not hold to any Christian belief, Janet's or otherwise.

I understand exactly that in your view, creating a "life giving force" denys the power of humanity to create life, and to decide upon it's own moral code through simply BEING human. I've pretty much come to the same idea myself, although I DO believe in an "other" force which holds no greater power. (A connecting force).

I don't see how anyone having an opinion to the contrary can ever be "Offensive" if they have not told you that They are right, and you are wrong.

I'm offended by people who come to their beliefs through ignorance ie) "Women are Weaker than men, so can't have jobs".
That is a belief that actively challanges a person's existence/lifestyle.
I'm offended by it because someone's views could have the potential to affect my life.

I can't bring myself to be offended by someone who believes something that does NOT impose upon me.

ok, Christianity has a bad rep for "imposing", but as Janet has explained before, that's tarring 'em all with the same brush!

Why offenseive then?


Also, personal rant.
I always get people assuming that because I belive in God, then I also believe that God is powerful/other than us/in-charge/the cause of life.

This isn't what I believe. I believe in everything being connected to everything else through our emotions and senses. Our "souls".


John_Little - 30-3-2008 at 16:52

I think I understand what Simon is getting at. What I cant quite get to grips with, is the concept of "being offended".

I do think some people are sometimes over sensitive and that the claim that some people make that they find another's post "offensive" if often just a way of shutting someone up.

But, as I said in another thread, the RSE forum has a slightly different emphasis on the rules than say - general discussion. I feel that it is probably a good thing for this particular forum to operate by a slightly more rigid application of the "no-offense" rule to enable people to discuss ideas that are dear but not so robust.

Edit: so, asking for a "bit of slack" is probably a good way of putting it.


janet - 30-3-2008 at 17:10

The problem is that if the very mention of religious belief is offensive, this forum can not exist, by definition.


John_Little - 30-3-2008 at 17:21

Which would be a shame. This is quite a good forum and I would hate anyone to feel that they cant express their beliefs here. I'm afraid, Simon, that in this forum, I agree that slack should be cut. Even if I have been guilty in the past.

Anyway, there are plenty of things that people here might easily believe I was mad to think or do. One in particular.


John Barnes - 30-3-2008 at 17:47

Simon has the same chance as any one else in the forum If a certain persons posts offend just don't read or answer them, there is no compulsion to do so, he may think some one is deluded in their thinking well that's his choice the boot is on the other foot if some thinks his reasoning is faulted, its like television there is always an on off switch.
whilst not a believer as such in any established religion man made i honour the right of others to profess their beliefs . as this is a religious forum open to debate
well i believe there is some moving spirit within or without of this Universe of which is higher than man and if this offends tough and some religious Christian or others thinks i am mad for holding this belief so be it, ignore any post that offend as long they are not personal that my motto. if a person of religious thinking says i will spend eternity in Hell for my beliefsall i can say to believer or non believer, prove it .
jmb


SRD - 30-3-2008 at 18:05

Ok, the believers win, if anyone finds me posting in this forum again, shoot me.


the bear - 31-3-2008 at 06:36

Simon I have only just picked this up, It would be sad to see you leave, I for one will miss your lively input

Can't all parties concerned find some common ground, even if its only "agree to dis-agree"


If you read this

Best regards, the Bear


Dreamweaver - 31-3-2008 at 07:36

Quote:
Originally posted by the bear
Simon I have only just picked this up, It would be sad to see you leave, I for one will miss your lively input

Can't all parties concerned find some common ground, even if its only "agree to dis-agree"


If you read this

Best regards, the Bear


I am thinking Simon meant this forum as in the RSE forum bear. I do hope so anyhow.


John_Little - 31-3-2008 at 07:52

That's what I thought he meant.

But, by the same token, if any religious views make their way outside, I'd say they were fair game.


the bear - 31-3-2008 at 08:50

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamweaver
Quote:
Originally posted by the bear
Simon I have only just picked this up, It would be sad to see you leave, I for one will miss your lively input

Can't all parties concerned find some common ground, even if its only "agree to dis-agree"


If you read this

Best regards, the Bear


I am thinking Simon meant this forum as in the RSE forum bear. I do hope so anyhow.


Ooops, size elevens right in it, again

Regards the Bear