Karl`s PC Help Forums

If you had met Judas.
TooCute4Words - 25-3-2008 at 21:28

Would you have tried to change his ways and what he did?


John Barnes - 25-3-2008 at 23:26

Definitetly No,
Its the same as with Pontius Pilate who is regarded as a saint in the Coptic church simply because if you changed the out come
according to believers , Jesus could not have carried out his divinely inspired plan to save the whole of human kind by his death,
according to world wide Christian belief the death on the Cross was the salvation point of supreme sacrifice by Gods son made man to clear the stain of original sin from the soul, if this is not true none of the fundamental tenets of Christianity could be full filled and future events like the amalgamation of state and church under Constantine would not have been promulgated or if it was it would not have been a Christian religion, any way it would have made no difference in some schools as Gods plans cant be thwarted by mortals as he is omnipotent
maybe some of the more religious clique on the forum will give you a more in depth answer , an interesting point but futile as in some schools of thought this has actually happened in another Multiverse jmb


victor - 25-3-2008 at 23:32

You might as well say "if you had met Hitler."

Sorry you can not change history.


John Barnes - 26-3-2008 at 01:34

Now there's thought Victor i would wonder what the out come would have been if a set of war books had been sent back and Hitler had read them , jmb


the bear - 26-3-2008 at 02:10

Quote:
Originally posted by John Barnes
Definitetly No,
Its the same as with Pontius Pilate who is regarded as a saint in the Coptic church simply because if you changed the out come
according to believers , Jesus could not have carried out his divinely inspired plan to save the whole of human kind by his death,
according to world wide Christian belief the death on the Cross was the salvation point of supreme sacrifice by Gods son made man to clear the stain of original sin from the soul, if this is not true none of the fundamental tenets of Christianity could be full filled and future events like the amalgamation of state and church under Constantine would not have been promulgated or if it was it would not have been a Christian religion, any way it would have made no difference in some schools as Gods plans cant be thwarted by mortals as he is omnipotent
maybe some of the more religious clique on the forum will give you a more in depth answer , an interesting point but futile as in some schools of thought this has actually happened in another Multiverse jmb



Does that make Judas an implement in Gods grand plan, carrying out his prearranged part in that plan was he doing Gods wishes, if this is the case should he be so reviled?

Regards the Bear


Badgergirl - 26-3-2008 at 21:17

No. But only because of my respect for History.

I read Tarot to read the possible/probable outcomes of the Here and Now But...
I don't believe anything is Pre-ordained, even the crucifixion. Judas did what he did of his own free will.


John Barnes - 26-3-2008 at 21:24

Quote:
Originally posted by the bear
Quote:
Originally posted by John Barnes
Definitetly No,
Its the same as with Pontius Pilate who is regarded as a saint in the Coptic church simply because if you changed the out come
according to believers , Jesus could not have carried out his divinely inspired plan to save the whole of human kind by his death,
according to world wide Christian belief the death on the Cross was the salvation point of supreme sacrifice by Gods son made man to clear the stain of original sin from the soul, if this is not true none of the fundamental tenets of Christianity could be full filled and future events like the amalgamation of state and church under Constantine would not have been promulgated or if it was it would not have been a Christian religion, any way it would have made no difference in some schools as Gods plans cant be thwarted by mortals as he is omnipotent
maybe some of the more religious clique on the forum will give you a more in depth answer , an interesting point but futile as in some schools of thought this has actually happened in another Multiverse jmb



Does that make Judas an implement in Gods grand plan, carrying out his prearranged part in that plan was he doing Gods wishes, if this is the case should he be so reviled?

Regards the Bear




Isn't every one a implement of God / according to religious belief he is the Father and we the servants , ask Scholar he can explain a more in depth faith answer maybe . or Janet who teaches subjects pertaining to peoples beliefs, jmb

no affront intended take my remarks on face value


janet - 26-3-2008 at 22:00

JMB, I understand what you're saying and it certainly does hold true for some denominations of CHristianity - not, however, mine, and it's not an idea I can really get my head around.

I would agree to the idea that there is a huge gulf *of essence* between the Creator and creatures, but I would also argue that all humans have the potential for the use of free will (1). Predestination in that sense - that we have no choice about what we do - isn't part of my beliefs or those of my denomination. I know that in some denomations there is a much greater empahsis on predestination, but as I really can't make that work with other bits I understand about Christianity, I'm loathe to try to explain it - because I don't think I'd do a good job. :}

(1)I say "potential" because not everyone is able to exercise their wills freely - those who are unable to understand the choices in front of them, for example, such as babies and small children...


scholar - 26-3-2008 at 22:34

Quote:
Originally posted by TooCute4Words
Would you have tried to change his ways and what he did?
No, because Jesus was present to influence him for a number of years. I would not be able to improve on what He did.kewl_glasses


John_Little - 27-3-2008 at 08:53

Now, you know me, not exactly an acredited theologian, but my understanding was that it was all part of the plan. Jesus knew what Judas was about to do and encouraged it. The last supper and stuff?

How then does that fit in with the free will thing?

Besides, we would never have had that excellent rendition of "heaven on their minds" by Carl Anderson. What a genius! And Ted, or course.


janet - 27-3-2008 at 09:01

I think there was still free will involved....


John_Little - 27-3-2008 at 09:07

So, if Judas changed his mind, how would that have left things? If Jesus was God, its reasonable to suggest he would have known what was coming. If it didn't turn out the way he predicted, then that would cast doubt upon his omniscience.


janet - 27-3-2008 at 09:20

You've hit on the perennial problem of the foreknowledge of God and the freewill of humans.

The main explanation that works for me is - I don't understand God, which I find entirely reasonable - a God I could understand wouldn't be much of a God.

However, I think it also helps to go with a medieval idea (which still works for me) that God is not bound by anything - including time.

Where you and I might know what's going to happen in the future (I know my daughter will clean up the mess made by her party, for instance), I know it NOW but for me it hasn't happened yet.

For God, however, (under this scenario) there is only an eternal *now* - no past, no future. Rather like being on a hill top a long way away from something - you can see more than those who are close up? It's a metaphor, and thus doesn't stand really detailed dissection but it's an idea, anyway.


John_Little - 27-3-2008 at 10:44

Ok, I could accept that if it wasn't for the fact that this particluar scenario is so central to the basis of Christianity.

Jesus was sent by God to die for our sins. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him because this was part of the plan. If Judas failed in his duty to God and the World, but someone else did it later on, perhaps to a different incarnation of God, surely we couldn't have Christianity as we know it now.


janet - 27-3-2008 at 11:08

Actually... there's an old medieval debate about whether or not Jesus would have come even if we'd never sinned - the Franciscans said no, the Dominicans said yes...

And since this is all "what if" - there can be no definitive answer, I'm afraid!

However, the general idea rests on the omniscience of God - which is not the same as overriding free will. I may know that someone will do something without influencing them to do it. My knowledge is flawed and contingent, however, cause I'm human....


LSemmens - 27-3-2008 at 12:40

It is difficult as Janet says. As has also been said, God is Omniscient, it's like dropping an egg on a concrete floor, we know what will happen when it hits, and despite our desire for the other, we know that it will break. In the case of Judas, God knew what was in his heart, and all he did was present him with the choice. A thief is not a thief until he steals the first item. If said item had not presented itself at that first opportunity, another opportunity would not have been too long in coming. It wasn't so much as God forcing Judas' hand, but that of Judas acting in accord with his own nature.


John_Little - 27-3-2008 at 12:46

A couple of good answers there. I'll have to give it some thought.


Badgergirl - 27-3-2008 at 13:10

Quote:
Originally posted by LSemmens
It is difficult as Janet says. As has also been said, God is Omniscient, it's like dropping an egg on a concrete floor, we know what will happen when it hits, and despite our desire for the other, we know that it will break. In the case of Judas, God knew what was in his heart, and all he did was present him with the choice. A thief is not a thief until he steals the first item. If said item had not presented itself at that first opportunity, another opportunity would not have been too long in coming. It wasn't so much as God forcing Judas' hand, but that of Judas acting in accord with his own nature.


Hmm, I think that works for me.
I do tarot to "bring out" what may happen. Any form of Scrying is a way of looking deeper into the present, and drawing out what is possible from the current situation.
I've never thought I could see what "Will" happen, only what is likely to.


John_Little - 27-3-2008 at 14:20

Ok. An egg, when dropped, is pre-ordained by gravity to travel towards the earth. It is also pre-ordained, by its structure compared to the structure of the earth it falls on, to break. That is why you "know" what will happen if you drop it.

Knowing something will happen, does not necessarily mean that you, as a human observer, made it happen; unless, of course, you deliberately drop the egg with the intention of breaking it.

God, on the other hand, according to the bible, made the universe and all that is in it. An egg has no "free will" in its journey from your hand to the earth and no choice of what happens when it gets there.

If we are to believe the scriptures, then Jesus knew what Judas would do, because he was God - or at least, had direct access to God. Slightly more complicated than the egg, but the same principle. And God made the rules of the universe and all that is in it.

The fact that he could predict so accurately what Judas would do, is because he knew all the influences on Judas and the World around him - because he made it all and made the rules that govern it all.

He would have known, Judas had no choice but to follow the path that had led him to where he was. Now, we cannot see all of this for a number of reasons.

1. Because we have not been around since the start of the universe and
2. Because our brains are not large enough to register and analyse all the information in the whole of the universe to work out what will happen to any given thing at any one time.

Ish.


scholar - 27-3-2008 at 14:40

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little




The fact that he could predict so accurately what Judas would do, is because he knew all the influences on Judas and the World around him - because he made it all and made the rules that govern it all.

He would have known, Judas had no choice but to follow the path that had led him to where he was.

I underlined a part that is in error.

If something is entirely predictable, it does not mean that it is not ALSO freely chosen.

E.g. a man loves pizza, but he absolutely hates liver; if he smells it cooking, or on someone else's plate, it sickens him and he will leave the room.

He sits down to eat at a restaurant that serves pizza or liver. He will certainly order pizza, but it is predictable (given his tastes and previous experience) AND it is his free choice. Does he have no choice but to order the pizza? Certainly he has the choice to do otherwise, it is on the menu and he can say "liver" as easily as "pizza." He has that choice--but he will never exercise it.


John_Little - 27-3-2008 at 14:53

Ok, another good point.

Give me time to think.

Edit: But, in the meantime, are you saying that God gambled on Judas doing the right thing?


janet - 27-3-2008 at 15:14

Well, no, I don't think it's so much gambled as did not ordain.

I'd sound a caveat again - we're humans, talking about the mind of God. From the POV of any Christian theology I've ever come across, that means that by default, we're not going to completely understand what's going on.

It's possible to know something is going to happen - what I would describe as moral certainty - without causing it to happen.


scholar - 27-3-2008 at 15:32

:) Please note that I picked a small, circumscribed part of the discussion for my comment--a module, if you will.

Only to make the point that full predictability and choice can coincide. If I will do x (like the man who would order pizza), it can be my choice as well as being certain to happen, given the person's personal preferences, history, etc.:):)


LSemmens - 28-3-2008 at 10:51

Quote:
Knowing something will happen, does not necessarily mean that you, as a human observer, made it happen; unless, of course, you deliberately drop the egg with the intention of breaking it.

That was my point! I did not say that God caused Judas to betray Jesus, but, like the egg, once circumstances were set in motion, the outcome was predictable!


John_Little - 28-3-2008 at 11:05

I know.