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Documented case of demonic possession with multiple witnesses
scholar - 17-3-2008 at 01:11

This will take you to the New Oxford Review

And

"Real-life case of demon possession Woman levitated, spoke other languages, showed paranormal powers"


Quote:
The unnamed woman, with a long history of involvement with Satanic groups, was observed by a team of priests, deacons, several lay assistants, psychiatrists, nuns, some of whom also had medical and psychiatric training, levitating six inches off the ground while objects flew off shelves in the same room, according to Dr. Richard E. Gallagher, who documented the case

She spoke in languages unknown to her native self, and displayed knowledge of events and circumstances she could not possibly have known about by natural means.

Comments? Reactions?


Daz - 17-3-2008 at 02:06

Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
Comments? Reactions?


By the power of Christ I command thee... By the power of Christ I command thee... By the power of Christ I command thee...

smokin:


SRD - 17-3-2008 at 08:19

Drumming up business for your mates eh scholar? And a quick perusal of the other contents of the second link suggests that the Daily Mail ain't so bad after all.


janet - 17-3-2008 at 08:35

What is particularly startling about possession? Individual cases are, of course, startling, upsetting, etc., but the phenomena is hardly unknown.


Badgergirl - 17-3-2008 at 11:17

Depends on the posession really. If you are being used for harm, then worry!
If not, then I guess you could learn something about the spirit.


SRD - 17-3-2008 at 11:52

It's difficult to be possesed by demons when there are no such things as demons.


LSemmens - 17-3-2008 at 12:53

These people might object to you saying they don't exist, Simon!
As may these!
Oh! And these!
Shall I go on?


SRD - 17-3-2008 at 14:32

Another case of antipodean incapability of actually reading and inwardly digesting, if I had been referring to proper names I would have capitalised demons thus: Demons.


Redwolf5150 - 17-3-2008 at 14:52

Just wait until 2Cute gets a gander at this thread.

SHEESH!

kewl_glasses


John_Little - 17-3-2008 at 15:43

Hmmmmm......


scholar - 17-3-2008 at 15:53

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
What is particularly startling about possession? Individual cases are, of course, startling, upsetting, etc., but the phenomena is hardly unknown.

Quote:
Originally posted by SRD
It's difficult to be possesed by demons when there are no such things as demons.

It appears that, just because demons possess people and manifest themselves with levitation, speech in languages not known to the original person, knowledge inaccessible to the person, and telekinesis, doesn't mean that Simon can't deny it.:)


SRD - 17-3-2008 at 16:08

Assuming the manifestations actually occurred doesn't mean they were caused by demons.


scholar - 17-3-2008 at 16:19

Actually, Simon, I think the use of the term "manifestations" couples to the idea that unseen spiritual agents (i.e. demons) caused them.kewl_glasses


marymary100 - 17-3-2008 at 16:39

Doubting Thomasina here. It hasn't happened to anyone I know personally. What about you?


scholar - 17-3-2008 at 16:44

Quote:
Originally posted by marymary100
Doubting Thomasina here. It hasn't happened to anyone I know personally. What about you?
No, I am not possessed by demons.


SRD - 17-3-2008 at 16:45

Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
Actually, Simon, I think the use of the term "manifestations" couples to the idea that unseen spiritual agents (i.e. demons) caused them.kewl_glasses
Ah, Americans and British, two nations separated by a common language, to me a manifestation means something that is seen to happen, or something that is, e.g. a ships manifest is the list of items on board the ship. It has no necessary spiritual connotation. I agree that it is also used to describe those things that happen that are supposedly the work of spirits, but it is very much the actual happening rather than the cause of the happening.


scholar - 17-3-2008 at 16:54

Quote:
Originally posted by SRD
Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
Actually, Simon, I think the use of the term "manifestations" couples to the idea that unseen spiritual agents (i.e. demons) caused them.kewl_glasses
Ah, Americans and British, two nations separated by a common language, to me a manifestation means something that is seen to happen, or something that is, e.g. a ships manifest is the list of items on board the ship. It has no necessary spiritual connotation. I agree that it is also used to describe those things that happen that are supposedly the work of spirits, but it is very much the actual happening rather than the cause of the happening.
To myself, an American, an agent manifests itself (shows its presence) by its manifestations (the effects which demonstrate it is there). For a neutral term, I would use a word like "observations" or "phenomena."

I grant you the point, Simon.doffs_cap I think my use fits the origin of the word well, but I do not insist Britain conforms to my usage.;)


marymary100 - 17-3-2008 at 17:05

Or to anyone you know?


SRD - 17-3-2008 at 17:05

I found this http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manifest in what I understand is an American dictionary, but I am happy to use your own definition: 'an agent manifests itself (shows its presence) by its manifestations (the effects which demonstrate it is there) and suggest that you (inter alia) are presupposing the first from the second, this I would suggest is a non-sequitor, I do not think you can accurately state that the agent (a demon) exists because someone exhibits certain manifestations ( 'levitation, speech in languages not known to the original person, knowledge inaccessible to the person, and telekinesis'). As far as I know the list of manifestations was attributed to the agent, not that the agent was proved to exist because of the list of manifestations.


John_Little - 17-3-2008 at 17:34

Surely,

If these things did happen, then how come the American Government hasn't made it a priority to harness these demons for use in their war efforts.

this levitation business could come in very handy, I'd have thought.


marymary100 - 17-3-2008 at 17:46

weapons of mass levitation............:D


John_Little - 17-3-2008 at 18:24

Hang on, MM, before we get too excited about the possibilities here.

I note that you cant actually read the first article without paying.

the second article is about an unknown woman, an unknown psychiatrist and an unknown nun.

Lot of unknowns there.

But, as the man said. There are things that we know we dont know and things that we know we know. but there are things that we dont know we dont know. Know what I mean?

Edit: And what about the dodgy pills they are advertising on the same page?


scholar - 17-3-2008 at 19:02

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
Edit: And what about the dodgy pills they are advertising on the same page?
You may try them if you wish. I have no interest in them.

That sounds to me as if you are trying to get the conversation off track.:P:P:P

But, on a serious note, demon possession is no laughing matter to those who are so afflicted.


John_Little - 17-3-2008 at 20:22

I dont suppose it would be.

Any luck with your wallet?


TooCute4Words - 17-3-2008 at 20:24

Quote:
Originally posted by SRD
It's difficult to be possesed by demons when there are no such things as demons.


Exactly right and true :D


TooCute4Words - 17-3-2008 at 20:26

Quote:
Originally posted by Redwolf5150
Just wait until 2Cute gets a gander at this thread.

SHEESH!

kewl_glasses


YEEEEEEEEEES I've seen the film, "The Exorcist".


scholar - 17-3-2008 at 23:28

Dr. John hasn't weighed in on this, yet.:cool:


marymary100 - 17-3-2008 at 23:41

Are you suggesting that scholar's wallet has been possessed by demons? Should he be looking up rather than down? Wallets of mass levitation?


Badgergirl - 18-3-2008 at 00:06

Quote:
Originally posted by TooCute4Words
Quote:
Originally posted by SRD
It's difficult to be possesed by demons when there are no such things as demons.


Exactly right and true :D


Until you meet one personally!
I can only go by experience. I've met one. (Totally sober I may add).

I call it a demon because it's behaviour conformed to the monsterish steryotype of a demon. Perhaps it wasn't a demon. I could make up another word for it. It was a "blooble" instead.
Words change and develop, I met what would be in most languages, a Noun, in my bedroom, attempting to attack myself and my (then) partner Who saw it too. It was black, with a burning coal centre.


victor - 18-3-2008 at 00:24

shocked_yellow


SRD - 18-3-2008 at 09:00

Quote:
Originally posted by Badgergirl
Quote:
Originally posted by TooCute4Words
Quote:
Originally posted by SRD
It's difficult to be possesed by demons when there are no such things as demons.


Exactly right and true :D


Until you meet one personally!
I can only go by experience. I've met one. (Totally sober I may add).

I call it a demon because it's behaviour conformed to the monsterish steryotype of a demon. Perhaps it wasn't a demon. I could make up another word for it. It was a "blooble" instead.
Words change and develop, I met what would be in most languages, a Noun, in my bedroom, attempting to attack myself and my (then) partner Who saw it too. It was black, with a burning coal centre.
I want some of what you've been on.nananana


janet - 18-3-2008 at 09:06

Ok - what's the deal, here?

Those of us who believe in a supernatural dimension to life are generally fairly even handed, and say things such as "this is my belief", etc.

Those who do not believe in such a dimension, instead of saying, "You know, I disagree", end up with posts like the one above, which frankly ridicules another member.

Anyone see an imbalance here?


SRD - 18-3-2008 at 09:09

Yup, get down and get dirty.waveysmiley


SRD - 18-3-2008 at 09:11

On a more serious note, do you not think it is equally ridiculing other members to expect them to believe such twaddle.


janet - 18-3-2008 at 09:16

No.

No one was expecting anyone else to believe - as I recall, comments were requested.

That's remarkably different than saying, "I find your beliefs to be twaddle".

I disagree with your beliefs but I see no need to ridicule them, nor to ridicule you for having them.

YMMV.


John_Little - 18-3-2008 at 09:20

Possessed by Demons?


janet - 18-3-2008 at 09:21

No, just a different standard of respect and courtesy.


SRD - 18-3-2008 at 09:23

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
No.

No one was expecting anyone else to believe - as I recall, comments were requested.

That's remarkably different than saying, "I find your beliefs to be twaddle".

I disagree with your beliefs but I see no need to ridicule them, nor to ridicule you for having them.

YMMV.
You can't disagree with my beliefs, I don't have any. Things are according to evidence supplied, may be if the evidence appears suspect or aren't if the evidence is twaddle.


janet - 18-3-2008 at 09:25

Then you believe empiricism - you believe in what your eyes tell you.

That's fine.

What you also apparently believe in is ridiculing beliefs which don't accord with yours. There, I can't join you.


SRD - 18-3-2008 at 09:26

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
No, just a different standard of respect and courtesy.
Not at all, I don't think you realise just how offensive it is for some people when others trot out twaddle in support of mumbo jumbo.


SRD - 18-3-2008 at 09:28

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
Then you believe empiricism - you believe in what your eyes tell you.

That's fine.

What you also apparently believe in is ridiculing beliefs which don't accord with yours. There, I can't join you.
No, I do not 'believe it.' Belief is the acceptance of something with no evidence to support it. I'm with Donald Rumsfeld here.


janet - 18-3-2008 at 09:29

I realise how rude it is to call someone else's beliefs twaddle and mumbo jumbo.

You are an empiricist, and an atheist. (If that's not correct, I apologise - neither of those are terms I see as being offensive).

That's your choice and one I respect.

I do not choose to ridicule you for having beliefs which differ from mine.

I don't see how it is offensive for someone to say, "This is my belief".

I can see how offensive it is for someone to say, "Your beliefs are twaddle".


SRD - 18-3-2008 at 09:37

Like many who see belief as perfectly reasonable, you don't understand how offensive it is to say 'I believe in a god'. This is a complete denial of all humanity and as such a direct attack on me.


LSemmens - 18-3-2008 at 10:18

You would do well to refrain from ridiculing another's set of beliefs, Simon, until the Wright brothers flew, there were many who ridiculed the concept of a vehicle that is heavier than air leaving the ground. Many have experienced the supernatural in their lives and have a healthy respect of it. Others, you included, do not believe in such a realm. That is your prerogative! Belittling a belief because you either do not understand, or you choose to does nothing to support your cause. If you choose to continue in this vein then I, or one of the other mods may well have need to use the Kill1Kill1Kill1


John_Little - 18-3-2008 at 13:41

But........


........at the risk of repeating myself (risk?).......

........possessed by Demons?


Badgergirl - 18-3-2008 at 15:42

Hmm.
Well, I didn't believe in demons until I met one.

I'm clever enough to believe that mankind has flown even before I travelled in a plane. I heard the evidence from others who had flown. The only thing left for me to do was experience this flight in my own way. It wasn't like anyone else had described, because we all have different ways of describing things.

I'm open minded enough never to dismsiss the idea of Demons out of hand. Nor Spirits, nor Ghosts.
Enough people around me have seen ghosts, and I think we all know perfectly rational/sane people who have told us their own ghost stores.
All that is left is for me to see one myself.
Oh, wait, I have. A little girl who walked over to me and put her hand on my coat. The incident was witnessed by three other people.

I've heard cannabis is strong these days, but strong enough to make everyone in the rooms hallucinate the same?
I wasn't even "on" anything when these various incidents happened.
Nor was I alone and spooked out.

It's not my "Belief" that these things exist, It's simply my experience. I don't say I "Believe" in Aeroplanes.


scholar - 18-3-2008 at 15:45

Well expressed, Badgergirl. :)


Badgergirl - 18-3-2008 at 15:55

Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
Well expressed, Badgergirl. :)


Cheers. :D

I'm feeling especially clever today. I may go do a crossword now.


Redwolf5150 - 18-3-2008 at 16:12

I believe in Badgerwomen.

But that's because I've seen pictures of them.

:D


scholar - 18-3-2008 at 16:32

edit--I posted a "devilish" picture of a politician, but I have reconsidered and removed it. This is a serious subject. Historically, demons have been known to do great harm.


John_Little - 18-3-2008 at 16:41

.........................................................
..........................................................
......................................................

Sigh................................


marymary100 - 18-3-2008 at 16:52

Scholar, please confine your demonising of Mrs Clinton to verbal attacks in the appropriate thread.


scholar - 18-3-2008 at 16:57

Quote:
Originally posted by marymary100
Scholar, please confine your demonising of Mrs Clinton to verbal attacks in the appropriate thread.
I edited my post before you responded.:)


janet - 18-3-2008 at 18:05

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
But........


........at the risk of repeating myself (risk?).......

........possessed by Demons?


Regardless of one's personal belief, certainly people in history have believed in such things - though in the history of magic, manifestations are far more common than possessions; the two are different beasties, as it were.

The concept of possession is one that is always there in what one might call "the established churches", but it tends to be fairly low level and not all that much to the fore.

Every so often, however, it does become a talking point and an action point among different groups of Christians (and other groups, possibly - I'm afraid I don't know). There is a strong belief in the possibility among a number of the newer churches.

It makes a kind of sense, from within various belief systems - if one's belief is very strong in the idea of an eternal battle between the forces of good (God) and the forces of evil (the devil, demons), then possession makes sense within that scenario - particularly for the "side" which is least likely to respect the individual will of any given human - and that "side" is going to be the one labelled the forces of evil.

(I've tried to explain this in as abstract a manner as possible - it's not about my own beliefs, but rather trying to explain where the idea comes from).


scholar - 18-3-2008 at 18:28

Quote:
Originally posted by janet
Regardless of one's personal belief, certainly people in history have believed in such things - though in the history of magic, manifestations are far more common than possessions; the two are different beasties, as it were.
I think of demon possession as a subset of demon manifestations. Demons may do other activities with observable effects (manifestations) without possessing a person [Badgergirl seeing a demon would fall into this category]; when demons possess a person, that possession will typically have observable effects (manifestations) also.


janet - 18-3-2008 at 18:34

I was talking about the history of the issue, scholar, not about personal beliefs or the way people see them.


John_Little - 18-3-2008 at 19:35

confused2


marymary100 - 18-3-2008 at 19:49

Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
Quote:
Originally posted by marymary100
Scholar, please confine your demonising of Mrs Clinton to verbal attacks in the appropriate thread.
I edited my post before you responded.:)
My point remains whether or not you have edited the picture. You were asked, as were we all, to keep the US election to one particular thread. I for one am somewhat tired of the continual negative posting in her direction and apparent carte blanche for other candidates.


scholar - 19-3-2008 at 15:52

I've noticed no one has posted an alternative explanation for the documented events, witnessed by several people--the levitation, the speaking in known human languages which the natural person did not know, the knowledge of events which happened away from the local environment, and the items going off the shelves.

Demon possession is one explanation that has been proposed to fit the observations. Among those who reject that explanation, what is your alternative that accounts for each item of information?


John_Little - 20-3-2008 at 10:44

The same explanation that would be offered to explain why so many innocent people were brutally murdered at Salem. Hysteria? wishful thinking? Madness?

Convulsions, vomitting, delirium - including speaking nonsense or shouting and swearing could all be signs of a serious illness - perhaps even a brain tumour.

But anyone attempting to drive out demons using extreme means, such as any form of physical or mental abuse and not seeking medical help should be reported to the authorities and be prosecuted and possibly treated for their own mental health.


scholar - 20-3-2008 at 12:49

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
The same explanation that would be offered to explain why so many innocent people were brutally murdered at Salem. Hysteria? wishful thinking? Madness?

Convulsions, vomitting, delirium - including speaking nonsense or shouting and swearing could all be signs of a serious illness - perhaps even a brain tumour.

But anyone attempting to drive out demons using extreme means, such as any form of physical or mental abuse and not seeking medical help should be reported to the authorities and be prosecuted and possibly treated for their own mental health.
So, when information recorded and reported by a trained, accredited doctor with multiple other witnesses does not match what you expect, you imagine the information to be false?

The scientific method requires that one adapt one's theories to the observations; shutting your eyes and saying "The world must conform to my preconceptions" is not an option in science.:)


John_Little - 20-3-2008 at 13:34

scholar, if a trained accredited doctor diagnosed any of their patients as being possessed by demons, they should be struck off.


scholar - 20-3-2008 at 15:47

John Little, I don't think that recognition of a case of demon possession is a diagnosis--I don't believe it is on the diagnostic list.

Do you have an alternative explanation that accounts for levitation, speaking in various languages unknown to the person under observation, and knowledge of events remote to the environment of the person which were not communicated to her by any human who knew about them?

I have never known convulsions, vomiting, or delirium to cause a person to lift into the air and remain a distance above a surface, or to enable a person to make meaningful expressions in several languages they had not studied, or to give them knowledge of remote events.:)


marymary100 - 20-3-2008 at 16:37

Mental illness? Indoctrination? confused2


scholar - 20-3-2008 at 16:44

Quote:
Originally posted by marymary100
Mental illness? Indoctrination? confused2
I have never known mental illness or indoctrination to cause a person to lift into the air and remain a distance above a surface, or to enable a person to make meaningful expressions in several languages they had not studied, or to give them knowledge of remote events.:)


John_Little - 20-3-2008 at 17:03

Well, I have never known anyone to lift into the air without it involving a conjuring trick. Ask Daren Brown or David Blane.

As for the language thing. Do you mean "speaking in tongues"? Because there is a lot of that in Gospel Churches. Are they possessed too? Or just making it up as they go along?


marymary100 - 20-3-2008 at 17:04

I'm not convinced these things have happened at all. I'm surprised that others think they have despite not having any personal experience of them at all.


Daz - 20-3-2008 at 17:16

Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
So, when information recorded and reported by a trained, accredited doctor with multiple other witnesses does not match what you expect, you imagine the information to be false?


How is it that statement squared with your own views on global warming then...? confused2 ;)


John_Little - 20-3-2008 at 17:19

Wham!:)


marymary100 - 20-3-2008 at 17:29

:D


dr john - 20-3-2008 at 17:55

Well, I've kept out of it so far, but as scholar is missing my input, here goes.

Until I come across proper evidence, I consider demonic possession and demonic manifestations (just to make sure I'm covering however you personally phrase it) as examples of a deranged or confused mind, or of hysteria. I refer you to the Salem trials as John L did.

As for the "evidence" on this page
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58835
well I'd like so see more than a group of unnamed religious persons giving their opinion. How do you know it actually occurred for a start! I'd like some video evidence of the levitation and the items moving. I'd really like James Randi present when the effects occur, as he is masterful at exposing fakes, but perhaps that's asking too much.

I'd also like the video (if one were made) to be made by trusted non-believers, and then examined by experts for special effects.

A report minus a huge amount of identifying evidence is not acceptable.

Until then, I have no evidence to support demonic possession of manifestations.

But I do note that most of the things reported in the article are easily explained as someone who is mentally disturbed. Someone who might believe they are possessed and therefore might calm down if told they have been exorcised (placebo effect).


PS I can do a good show of talking in tongues, and I'm not possessed by a holy spirit. I just know the trick to make it seem real. ;)

PPS I saw a man walk through a wall, and another one stand inside a giant flame unharmed, and as I'm a scientist, well, it must be true. What? You don't believe me? But you believe the newspaper report...




Oh, the bit about standing inside a giant flame unharmed, that was true. It was me, when one of our students had an accident of the ether kind in the Dyson Perrins chemistry lab, Oxford Uni, 1982 or '83, can't remember which. I'm not joking. But you didn't believe me. Too fantastic to be true? But you believe a newspaper report, eh?


dr john - 20-3-2008 at 18:06

Quote:
Originally posted by Daz
Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
So, when information recorded and reported by a trained, accredited doctor with multiple other witnesses does not match what you expect, you imagine the information to be false?


How is it that statement squared with your own views on global warming then...? confused2 ;)


Yes, how can you reject the evidence from lots of reports, and then very selectively quote a few people who disagree with the rest of the world?

And as always, WHO says that the individuals in the demonic case are really who they claim to be??? They themselves do. You niavely accept them all as existing and being who it is claimed they are because it suits you. The article seems to be published in a journal that would happily accept such claims as well - was it a peer reviewed article?

But the person named - Richard E. Gallagher - is a biased reporter as he is said to be "a consistent U.S. delegate to the International Association of Exorcists" Yes, a well known professional organisation if ever I heard of one, eh!


scholar - 20-3-2008 at 18:07

Quote:
Originally posted by John_Little
As for the language thing. Do you mean "speaking in tongues"? Because there is a lot of that in Gospel Churches. Are they possessed too? Or just making it up as they go along?
As the Worldnet article reports from the New Oxford Review, Julia spoke in recognizable Latin and Spanish, neither of which were languages she knew.


dr john - 20-3-2008 at 18:09

Murder in the rue morgue - each person claimed they heard a foreign language which they didn't speak.

amo amas amat

Wow!


scholar - 20-3-2008 at 18:56

Quote:
Originally posted by Daz
Quote:
Originally posted by scholar
So, when information recorded and reported by a trained, accredited doctor with multiple other witnesses does not match what you expect, you imagine the information to be false?
How is it that statement squared with your own views on global warming then...? confused2 ;)
I accept information from multiple witnesses in both cases. That squares, I am consistent.

I agree that there was some increase in surface temperatures at the recording stations for some years in the last part of the 20th century--the reported information says that.

Does that information mean the man-made global warming theory is correct? No. Does it mean the computer models are correct? No--in fact, some of the computer models have predicted things wrongly and been disproved by observations. (An example I have in mind has to do with the interaction between wind and ocean currents, which went against previous modeling. A scientist who had been working in the area said the previously-proposed theory was backward, as to which influenced the other.) I also accept the information that global temperatures stopped going up for some years, now--which would not be the case if the carbon dioxide forcing theory were true.

There have also been a few problems with the temperature recording stations, which any fair-minded scientist would notice if he would examine the problem. A number of stations in the former Soviet Union were no longer maintained, and stopped reporting. (Weather stations in Siberia tended to contribute colder temperature readings.:D When these dropped out of the statistics, the average temperature went up.) I've also seen pictures of temperature stations in the US, with respect to which the immediate surroundings have changed greatly. For example, there are some that used to be surrounded by grass, but the area around them has since been paved with blacktop. (No surprise that they now report, in the summer, that temperatures are higher than they used to be!:D) At least one recording station now has an air conditioner vent exhausting toward it in the summer! I DO NOT assert that there is any conspiracy in the problem stations--the idea of such stations is that you build them and leave them alone (if you move them around, you are changing the point of observation). But, when other buildings go up in the area, so that heat is reflected toward them, or they are shielded from wind, it effects the data.


marymary100 - 20-3-2008 at 19:02

Amabo amabis amabint always made me laugh....maybe it only works in Scotland.


dr john - 20-3-2008 at 19:24

amabam amabas amabat - worked in school in Scotland too.


marymary100 - 20-3-2008 at 19:33

Indeed it did...........:D


Daz - 20-3-2008 at 21:50

Giron will be here soon, to issue a jolly good birching, for breaking rule 3...

:D

:dun)