I'm posting this in RSE because of the Ethical context of the question, I understand religion will come into this but I would love to see a broader
I've been chatting with my J about Footballers, Authours, Rock Stars, Dancers etc. People who's carrers mean they do what they love, for the enjoyment of others AND get paid more than we dream of. If I could do it I would and fair play to those who can!
Then we chatted briefly about "If we ever needed a nanny". I said it was highly unlikely I'd hire one for my future children, even if we DID need the money. Now, I'm not slating Nannys, who only do their job because they love, care and nurture.
Nor am I slating parents who's constraints and pressures lead them to Hire a Nanny. (After all, My J was sent to Boarding School to be settled instead of dragged around RAF bases).
What It made me think is this. I was raised happily. I spent time with my parents, and I was warm and fed. We were not all that well off but I can't say I've felt hard done to. My parents worked hard for us, and if they had higher paid , higher pressure jobs we'd probably have had a) More expensive stuff and b) Less time with eachother.
At what point does having more money lead to "deserving" what you have, and deserving to KEEP what you have? (Even if you aren't always around f'r example)
Do we feel guilty for keeping the Jaguar *instead of buying a nice reliable cute little Skoda, when things get a bit shakey with the Finances?
I'm not moralising, coz I've got a book addiction and J has a Movie and Playstation game addiction. We've all got "stuff" we feel we somehow deserve to keep.
*My dream car! SOO pretty.
I see this on more than one level. In one sense, I don't deserve anything. Anything I do, I just have the good fortune of being able to do it
because of a complete body (which I didn't earn) and a great mind (which I did not originally make, either). I am grateful for everything God has
given me, whether directly as a gift or indirectly because He has made me able to work for things.
In another sense, I've earned everything that has come to me because of payment for my work. There is no wrong in me having nice things, or in other people having better things than I if their work has earned it for them.
It can still happen that, even if I've earned something, I may be the better person for giving it away, if I see someone else in genuine need.
I gave up work when I had my daughter. I had some savings and when they were gone I went back to work on a very part time basis. We really struggled
financially - food or mortgage payment decisions sometimes - and I only managed to get back to work full time when she was about 7. My job then meant
that I could get home when she was getting in from school and my parents did the walking to and from school bit for me to make sure she was safe.
I made a conscious decision that being there was more important than having stuff, holidays etc. We have a very good relationship now which may or may not be as a result of what felt quite a sacrifice at the time.
Aren't all these things personal decisions? Who is prepared to start slinging the first rock and say 'You don't deserve that.'?
I think you mis-understand, I was looking at your question from my point of view, and if I'm not prepared to judge others why on earth should I judge myself?
Your point is valid, Simon, but, really, the only person to judge you is you.
The initial premise was do we feel guilty for the life decisions that we have made. Are there any regrets? I don't think that BG, or anyone else, for that matter, is attempting to moralise on the decisions that others have made.
As for the decisions that I have made in life, by the results that I have achieved with my tribe, I am fairly happy. There are things that I may have changed, but, looking backwards is not looking forwards. The important thing that I have learnt, BG, is No Regrets. If you spend your life worrying about what might have been. You know where that goes. Learn from your mistakes and resolve never to repeat them. The accident that wrote me off really drove home the point "no man knows the hour, or the day" (you knew the Bible was going to come into this somewhere). At that point I was comfortable in my position with my family, others, and my God. Had I died then, I would have been "happy" IYKWIM.
I have rather peculiar views on guilt...
It seems to me to be a particularly selfish sort of thing - "Oh, *I've* done wrong...".
Rather than, "there is a wrong that needs to be righted".
From my POV, guilt very often becomes a means of staying in one place, rather than moving on - indeed, I've seen it become a positive indulgence in people, rather than a stepping stone to better things. It is, in essence, backwards focused.
Do we deserve things? That's impossible to answer without a joint basis from which to judge.
It's not a question that interests me to be honest - what is far more important to me is not whether I "deserve" what I have, but whether I use it well.
The question was - do we deserve the things we have? Or rather to "keep" the things we have.
Although, having said that, we did verge on the question of whether its right to hire a nanny to enable you to go out to work.
Nannies: Well, in a perfect world, you would be able to afford to stay at home with your children because that is probably best for them and for you. Except that Mrs L got quite fed up with being at home with just the kids for company.
Also, interesting question of how come its economically justifiable to hire a nanny which suggests that you are paying less for her time than you are being paid for yours. Do you deserve that much extra for what you do? (you being the royal you - as in "one")
Footballers and pop stars: Hmmm. I think its a bit Virgils Birds. They fly because they can. They get these extraordinary paychecks because we let them and encourage them. I dont begrudge them, as it happens, but do wonder about a world that values a singer more than a nurse.
keeping the car when you really cant afford to - or the playstation or the books. If you are starving your children by keeping them then no. If you are going without only yourself, then if that's what floats your boat.......
Catholics! Already! But you cant blame yourselves. You are trained to feel guilty before you are trained to use the pot. You obviously recognise that fact and I think your point above is very true. Dont feel guilty - put it right!
Edit: And the bit about what you do with it, too. Without rich people, you wouldn't have a lot of stuff we have anyway. Even I as a socialist recognise that.
It's not all Catholics - it's a fairly particular subset...
Magdeline Laundries. Nuff said.
Oh, I'm not denying it exists - it's just that it's not all 1.1 billion of us.
Ok, fair point. Slap on the wrist for blantant over-generalisation.
But, come on, surely, deep down inside...........?
Nope. Well, no more than anyone else.
Catholicism as well as any other human "thing" is influenced by culture.
And it provides a clear mechanism for accepting forgiveness as well - different cultures emphasise different bits.
I've forgotten what thread this is but......
The forgiveness thing is a very good point. And used properly, it is extremely therapeutic and could be used as a model for any culture. As is the general support that the RC Church is capable of giving to its members.
I suppose its like anything else, really, potentially excellent but in the wrong hands.......
It's humans that are the problem, you see.
The churches would be GREAT if it weren't for all those humans in them.
(If someone misses the point of this post and goes off on one at me - you're all on your own....).
Since I believe Badger Girl's question was meaning "material possessions" I will reply to it in that manner.
Hubby and I have worked very hard for anything that we have - so YES I believe we deserve what we have.
The only thing I feel guilty about is the fact that I lost my job and am outdated in anything that I could do for work.
Because of that I am not able to find anything else worth the bother/cost of traveling to for work so he is left paying for it all.
I also agree with Scholar about the sharing with those in need part and if I had anything to share I would also do that.
I have friends I truly wish that I had money to spend on to make their lives better.
Then you deserve to win the Lottery, DeWitch.
By the way, I like your new avatar. It looks more - "hopefull". But is that your head on the dancer?
You have to tell us about the teabag tag. I might have been inspired by the tea, but not the tag.
Guilt is to be distinguished from guilt feelings.
Guilt is a poison that we eat with every wrong thing we do. If everything is working well (including a well-trained conscience), we will also feel guilt feelings, which is the same as feeling a little sick from eating the poison. That warns us we have done wrong, and a sensible person will seek to avoid eating what makes them feel sick. Sometimes, people eat a little poison and don't feel sick from it--that's the person who does wrong but they don't feel guilty, like a person who has built up a tolerance for impure food. (Sometimes, people have guilt feelings when they haven't really done wrong. That's like when a person eats healthy food but feels sick anyway, perhaps because it reminds them of a time they ate bad fish or whatever).
Confession and forgiveness from the Lord purges the poison. The guilt comes out, is removed, and doesn't harm us any more.
The person who is forgiven is the most blessed, most fortunate person in the world. We know we are truly loved and accepted, in spite of our misdeeds, problems, and deficiencies. We are loved as we are, unconditionally.
That's one of my favorite reasons for loving the Lord.
Of course one only needs forgiveness if one has done wrong, not having done anything wrong (as opposed to against the law) I have no need of forgiveness, nor to feel guilt.
John wrote, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
Paul wrote, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Mandy Rice-Davis said: But then, he would say that. Wouldn't he.
I can do that for Mandy Rice-Davies (got it wrong the first time)
Thank you, Badgergirl.
Simon, when you ask for "eyewitnesses," they will be hard indeed to round up, since the words were written more than 1900 years ago.
If I can find any, they will surely be using zimmerframes.
[Actually, I think you know that is an unreasonable request. You couldn't find eyewitnesses to answer questions about any document written then.]
Oh I don't know scholar, surely a man of your calibre could round up one or two, failing that, how about some eyewitness accounts? Some tried and trusted, impartial sources, you know, the kind of thing you demand of others when they have ideas you disagree with.
Sorry BG, I can't for the life of me understand what you mean. Are you saying I have guilt just because some book that you don't believe in says we
all sin? Are you saying that I have done wrong because a religion you don't believe in says I have done wrong? I haven't suggested that the bible
is wrong because it's old. All I did was to ask for evidence to support the existence of the individuals who supposedly wrote it of someone who
demands such evidence from those who would dispute it.
And of course the book has some good points and ideas, it's so woolly and varied as to make it impossible not to.
Bg, As far as I can see the only question you raised was "At what point does having more money lead to "deserving" what you have, and deserving to KEEP what you have? (Even if you aren't always around f'r example)" which no-one seems to have answered instead the discussion slid off to guilt. So why you should say "If you want to Debate the talking point I raised, I'll keep up with the posts but I 'Aint joining in." specifically to me rather than anyone else (surely scholar's response to me was more off thread) and also when you quite obviously have joined in by defending scholar on two occasions, on which count I think you'll find that scholar is more than capable of defending himself.
You are baiting, now, Simon. If it continues, we may need to use the .
Just as a point - how is SRD baiting anyone? Perhaps I'm missing it but there's a LOT of stuff far more pointed that goes by without anyone raising
(Yes, I know about not discussing mod decisions in public but if a warning is publicly given, it only seems fair to say that it doesn't seem a fair one?)
I like your posting style SRD, if that's any consolation.
I'll say again, you would say that, wouldn't you.
Badgergirl, I find it serendipitous and delightful that you sometimes get me so well--especially so, since we come from such different life-positions
on some topics.
Perhaps you are more open-minded about how to take the meaning of what I say. I have little or no guile. I make statements of knowledge for the delight of sharing knowledge. I share knowledge from my religion because I hold it as true and find it wonderful and satisfying, especially with regard to the love embodied therein.
I'm glad you are here.
But, do you ever think that maybe you might - over do it?
Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they don't "get" you.
But the occasional "Yes, just so!" is refreshing.
I just get tired of the, "I must agree with so and so, because they are my friend!".
I don't want friends like that. I want friends who say what they think, and aren't afraid to disagree with me.
I also get a tad fed up with the idea that if two people disagree, they have to argue it out till one gives in, or that disagreement = lack of respect, or that the right or wrong of an argument can be decided by the number of people on a forum who agree or disagree with it.
I'd be happier if we had a bigger range of topics to discuss. It seems to be quite limited at times.
Agreed - I generally try to add some, but it's been a bit busy around here lately... :}
There are times when we are all too busy to pose a question which is understandable. It's the same topic being posted over and over again that I object to.
This thread is getting altogether too fluffy for my liking.
Post a nonfluffy one, then
Watch out I don't add a touch of sparkle.........
Actually, no I hadn't noticed - I rarely look at who has started a thread, I tend to look in if the subject interests me. :}
My point remains, though - if you don't like a thread, start a different one.
My comment had the desired effect, I felt that some of the comments were moving off topic, which is acceptable, to becoming a little personal, which
is not. If we have not responded well to your new threads, Simon, it's likely as Janet has observed. I certainly don't judge a thread by the
originator, nor do I often look at who has replied, I read all replies, and occasionally address a person specifically. In this case, had I felt that
you had contravened the "rules" I would have moderated you and advised you why. I felt that some of the discussion was heading down that route,
would you prefer to be warned that the light was about to change or find out after the event when the truck is now firmly sitting in your lap?
This is my take on moderation, other mods may see things a little differently,
I'm a little confused here, I wasn't suggesting that people avoid my threads because they are my threads but because they aren't very interesting, experience has taught me that I post boring threads so I rarely bother.
Simon had a part in Father ted, he played Father Purcell, the boring priest. Talk about typecasting.
What's Father Ted?
What's Father Ted!!!!!!!
Only one of the bestest funniest most intelligent comedy programmes in the history of televison!
You are only the second person in the whole world ever to ask me that question.
Oh, I forgot, you are a radio man. You dont know how much you have missed!
All moderation, Janet, is done in consultation with the other mods so that we are all on the same page.
I was just saying that I may take more time to pull out the than some of the other mods. In some cases, this may not be the case.
As MM may say, all mods are chainsaw happy, but some are happier than others.
And some mods have friends that they use their powers to support and some are fairer minded.
you've been talking to Giron again, haven't you.
I can't understand why anyone takes all this so seriously.
You'll not get any rep points for posting remarks like that!
I don't wish to be picky janet but re-reading my post I can't find a reference to your quoted '"it"'. Not very good research eh?
Entirely so - should have been "this", not "it".
And no one is paying me to do research here.
Not quite what I said.
But I do spend a lot more time ensuring accuracy when it's the job rather than a forum posting.
So, if we paid you, would it effect the outcome?
Or do you have scrupples?
I just thought of something else and was about to edit my previous post then thought - sod it! I'll up my post count!
But - (break in proceedings ) good grief! I was only gone a second and there's a whole new page of posts! I wanted to go up and quote Girons comment to me about taking things the wrong way.
Ok, You are totally right, Giron and I think we often forget the differences in culture along with the fact that people have not known us for years and know where we are coming from. Neither can they see the glint in our eye or the well meaning smile on our faces when we post.
But, I can assure everyone here, that most of us newbies are naughty - but nice.
One more in the bin for my post count.......
OK, I'm a plonka and its a fair cop. There wasn't a whole page of posts turned up during that second. THere was a whole page I hadn't actually read that I didn't realise was there.
I just had a spider's web land across my nose, did I deserve that?
Well, it largely depends on what kind of spider and whether it was in the web at the time.
But, generally, no.
i've had those, too, I'd rather the spider's web though, unless, of course, it was a redback's web.
There you go with the redback again.
What happened to your wife when she got bit?
sorry to double post but this is important.
I answered in the other thread!
As far as redbacks are concerned, I just had to deal with several nests in the shed that I', lining for the billiard table that I picked up today. Any of you feeling strong? I've got three rather large chunks of slate to remove from my trailer in the morning, two of us weren't strong enough!
You pay the airfare and I'll be there.
Can't you swim?
That's all right, we're on the other side of a bl**dy big circle called "The Earth". I'll see you when you get here!
Bugga! I'll just have to do without! Son and his mate are coming over tomorrow, IF I can con (and I'm sure he'll be amenable) another mate, we may actually get the trailer unloaded. All I've got to do then is finish the walls, slap on a coat or two of paint, lay the floor, set up the table, and "job done"! Gee that sounds like a lot of work, pity I can't swim that far, or I'd be tempted to visit you lot in Pommieland! LOL